Changes you'd make

[Wylder Treejumper]

...

[James Gryphon]

There's no reason to turn this into a personal battle. Attack arguments or ideas, but not the man.

At any rate, watching this discussion is fascinating just because of the juxtaposition of the debaters' arguments.

I want to hit on something before I get into my own thoughts on this post: it's true that Martin's background in Mossflower appears to be different from what is described in Martin the Warrior. That doesn't mean, though, that Brian Jacques is "unable to tie tales together better". All we know is that he chose to make Martin's actual background story inconsistent with what the character said about his past in a different story. Implying that this must indicate incompetence on the part of the author is more than a little insulting.

With that out of the way, my ideal for a Redwall series has always been to make a long animation and synchronize it with the audiobooks. The graphics themselves would be based on the style of the illustrations in the book -- black and white.

That said, though, my ideal is very far from anything that might actually be made. The reason for this is because my objectives are different from the objectives of a company that might take on a Redwall animation project. I'm interested primarily in creating an animated, unabridged version of the books. They're interested in entertaining their fans, and don't much care about their product being true to the source material.

I agree that for such a series to actually be produced, two things have to happen: the violence has to be toned down, and the puzzles, riddles, feasting, etc. (really most of the extra stuff in the books) have got to go.

The violence part is pretty obvious. For an example: in the very first part of Mariel of Redwall, Gabool literally lops the head off of one of his captains. I don't think there's any way you can put that incident on-screen and get away with anything less than the equivalent to a PG-13 rating, and that's being very generous. What's more is that that sort of thing happens all the time in the books. There's no need to actually show all the nitty-gritty details on screen and elevate the rating to way above what children would be allowed to watch if the story can be told just as well without it.

I understand getting rid of the puzzle/etc. material is not a popular idea. The thing is, though, that the puzzles are not made to fit a 25-minute episode of "Redwall On Screen". The assumption when Brian Jacques was writing the book is that you're supposed to try to figure it out at your own pace, as you read it. But if it's being told to you, that pretty much ruins that aspect of the story. And the riddles, etc. are pretty forgettable if you haven't the time or inclination to try to figure them out for yourself.

The feasting and everything is good in the context of the book, when you have your imagination to aid you, but a TV show is not conducive to using your imagination. It would be filler material in that setting. It would be okay to show it a couple of times, to establish to the viewers that this is what Redwallers tend to do, but after that it doesn't make sense to keep bringing it up. This is, after all, an adventure series, not the cooking channel.

As it is, you're going to be hard-pressed to fit all of the necessary plot and character development into the short span of TV episodes. It doesn't make sense to add material that might take away from your already-condensed plot, especially when that material (riddles, etc.) isn't the best-suited for the audiovisual format to begin with.

Television series and movies based on books invariably are built on a foundation of compromises. That's the only way they get made. Things are going to be changed and removed, and a lot of the time, if you were a fan of the original book, you're not going to like those changes. I'm afraid that the closest you'll ever get to a 100% authentic Redwall film is if you listen to an audiobook, close your eyes, and picture it in your mind.

P.S.: I thought about this earlier, forgot about it while I was making my post, and then remembered it when I was rereading the discussion.

Veil's story as it is is all about the evil life that he lived, versus his final deed -- and whether or not he was redeemed at the end of the story. I don't see how you can, ultimately, get much more ambiguous than that. However, if you want to make Veil less clear-cut evil throughout the story, try it like this.

Veil decides to get back at the Friar by slipping him something to make him ill (not to kill him; more like a laxative or something). Unfortunately, Veil is clueless at identifying plants and accidentally picks out a fatal poison. Myrtle drinks it and dies. He still gets the red paws and hides them for a while, but he gets discovered. In the aftermath of Myrtle's death the Abbeydwellers aren't in the mood to listen to his claim that "it was an accident".

After that, just tone some of the things Veil does down a notch. He doesn't wound the old dormouse, he just steals his stuff. When he locks Bryony and Togget in with the rock, his intent would be to just leave them there for a bit, to scare them, before letting them out -- but when Swartt and his band come along, he goes with Swartt and they're left in there. Tone the disrespect to his father down big-time. Veil might do the customary vermin trash-talk, but he wouldn't act as if there was some question about who the boss was. The idea here is that Veil would watch Swartt and follow after him, reluctantly, but he'd be wondering all along if he made the right decision, and if his father is really someone that he wants to imitate. (Swartt, for his part, would be exactly the same as he is in the book.)

All this leads up to Veil saving Bryony at the end of the story. Finally, when Bella says what she says at the end of the book, Bryony doesn't respond.

If anything, this proposal probably makes Veil a little too good, but he'd be doing enough bad stuff to balance that out, I guess.

[Cornflower MM]

urgh....I tried to read that....But failed.....

[JangoCoolguy]

The Long Patrol:

- Open with Tammo's imaginary battle as an actual fight scene/fantasy that's interrupted by his siblings 
- Show the tree crashing down on the south wall during that big storm
- A narrated flashback--or some small ones here and there--about the Rapscallions' attack on Salamandastron.
- Have Rubbadub voiced by an actual drum, Gerald McBoing-Boing style! 
- Change something about that with the toads and fish. That was nasty >_<. At very least don't have the toads eating fish as they're being eaten.

[Delthion]

I would copy the books exactly...

[JangoCoolguy]

Triss (oh boy -_-):

- Do whatever I could make Triss less of a Mary Sue. Like showing her train with Martin's sword, literally learning the ropes a sailing, and having her find that passage-way on her own instead of Martin holding her paw.
- Make Scarum a little less obnoxious. Even a tiny bit would do!
- Cut Welfo. All she was whine & cower, get sick, then leave with no effect on the plot whatsoever.
- Maybe cut Raura and Slippo (that coming from someone who like seals!)
- Cut the Migooch trive
- Give Bladd an undercurrent of menace; that is, hint at something darker under his goofy exterior (and accent). He didn't feel like a bad guy and I felt sad when he died. He needs to act just a little more like a bad guy
- A flashback about the origin of the Hydra Siblings, most likely narrated by Mokug.
- Do more with Bluddbeak or just cut him.
- Cut Sleeve, or at least her narration. That part of the story will work better actually being shown.
- I know I'll get in trouble for this one, but...we might have to cut Grubbage. I like him. I really do. But he played no role other than being purely comic relief. And Comic Relief characters are nigh-useless...
- Not sure how it could work, but have Triss & Shogg meet up with Sagaxus & friends sooner to streamline and speed up the story.

[Jetthebinturong]

Why is it bad to make you feel for a bad guy? I felt bad for Barranca and Romsca which I considered a welcome breath of fresh air from the general black and whiteness of the Redwall stories. Redwall is one of very few where the lines are so clearly defined, in most places they try to give you motivation and reasoning for the bad guys so that you understand their point of view. The "this is the bad guy and they're completely unreasonable" POV was one of the few things I disliked about Redwall.

[JangoCoolguy]

^ Okay, okay, you're right. I should've phrased that better. (Edit time!)

It's just that they talked about him like he was so bad when I saw the opposite. He seemed like the best of the pure ferrets, but the hear the slaves talk he was just as bad as his dad and sister. I just thought he should match it a little.

At the very least make it sound like he had it coming instead of being so "Awww man!"

[Cornflower MM]

*Is wondering if it's worth my time defending Triss from a very blatant, in-your-face accusation of Mary-Sue-ness*

I would copy the books exactly...

So would I, actually.

[General Ironbeak]

- Cut Krakulat and the gang war between him and Swarrt. It just felt like busy work

Really? No one likes Krakulat. 😢

[The Grey Coincidence]

Veil's story as it is is all about the evil life that he lived, versus his final deed -- and whether or not he was redeemed at the end of the story. I don't see how you can, ultimately, get much more ambiguous than that. However, if you want to make Veil less clear-cut evil throughout the story, try it like this.

Veil decides to get back at the Friar by slipping him something to make him ill (not to kill him; more like a laxative or something). Unfortunately, Veil is clueless at identifying plants and accidentally picks out a fatal poison. Myrtle drinks it and dies. He still gets the red paws and hides them for a while, but he gets discovered. In the aftermath of Myrtle's death the Abbeydwellers aren't in the mood to listen to his claim that "it was an accident".

After that, just tone some of the things Veil does down a notch. He doesn't wound the old dormouse, he just steals his stuff. When he locks Bryony and Togget in with the rock, his intent would be to just leave them there for a bit, to scare them, before letting them out -- but when Swartt and his band come along, he goes with Swartt and they're left in there. Tone the disrespect to his father down big-time. Veil might do the customary vermin trash-talk, but he wouldn't act as if there was some question about who the boss was. The idea here is that Veil would watch Swartt and follow after him, reluctantly, but he'd be wondering all along if he made the right decision, and if his father is really someone that he wants to imitate. (Swartt, for his part, would be exactly the same as he is in the book.)

All this leads up to Veil saving Bryony at the end of the story. Finally, when Bella says what she says at the end of the book, Bryony doesn't respond.

If anything, this proposal probably makes Veil a little too good, but he'd be doing enough bad stuff to balance that out, I guess.

Hmm, while I do like this proposal, I have to agree with your own thoughts that this makes Veil a little to good (accidental murder aside, if it's clear to the audience that the murder is accidental than he might get too many pity points)
So perhaps at the time have it be ambiguous as to whether or not it was an accident and leave Bryrony confused by that point too. At the same time I think ambiguity and Redwall don't really go together.

[The Skarzs]

I would want more characters like Romsca, from Pearls. Comparing that character to Veil as far as "gray" characters go, Romsca leaves a more bittersweet taste when her story is over. While the black and white lines of good and evil make it easy for storytelling, I personally appreciate nurture over nature.

I would like to imagine Taggerung rewritten in a way that he was little more than a vermin because he had no other role models. His temperament might be the same, but he would probably not be averse to killing, and would be pretty savage, as was his calling as the Taggerung. Instead of leaving of his own will, he would almost be chased off (somehow), and come into contact with more of his kind: otters.
He wouldn't know why they would act differently, because from what we know he wasn't really exposed to anyone but vermin. Eventually, because he was intelligent, he would figure out his origin, and his tendencies would change as he stuck around other otters and Redwallers. The ending would be pretty much the same.

[clunylooney]

You know what, I really don't want to make any changes. Myself, knowing that Bryan thought of everything and he being the one that wrote the books makes me not think of changing anything. I think it's perfect how it is  .

I'm sorry, but changes to the Tales are necessary and nigh-unavoidable. Reading a story and watching it are different things in general. What works in a book doesn't work on film. There are things that would HAVE to be changed to make them more kid/family friendly, more streamlined, and more cinematic.

The TV Show had a LOT of changes from big to small to medium (http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Redwall_TV_Series#Differences_From_The_Books), so adaptations to other Tales are needed as well.

You know that people can enjoy things right? If people don't want to change anything, THEN THEY DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE ANYTHING.

[clunylooney]

Jango....I'm getting the feeling that I don't like your perspective on the Redwall books and TV series AT. ALL. PERIOD.

Is it okay to say that I hate it? I still respect your opinion though. I just hate it. Once again, I respect your opinion, you are probably a nice person, I just really really really don't like that one opinion. Don't attack me. Please.

[Wylder Treejumper]

I think the point is that making the books into a TV show and using the exact script of the books would be literally impossible; the nature of the medium requires that many things be cut. You can just fit more material into a 350-page book than you can in a season of TV show, and what entertains in text will not necessarily do so visually. So saying that you want a movie or TV show to be "just like the books" is merely wishful thinking. I understand why, I too love all those aspects of the books, but it's simply not feasible to implement them in a visual format. That's why they are books.