Martin the warrior vs. Matthias the warior

[CaptainRocktree]

Yeah but Martin wasn't always perfect no one is really perfect redwall but I understand what you're saying I gusse  but do you ever wonder why there story's are kinda similar they both started out pretty low down like Matthias - Lowly habit and Martin - A slave and both rose to the and became heros in the world of redwall?

[Gonff the Mousethief]

Pffff, Gonff wins no matter what ! I do think that Martin would, just because he is older and more experienced.

[Vilu Daskar]

Martin is way better

[James Gryphon]

I'm honestly not sure that we can conclude Martin has the edge in overall experience.

If we look at them both when they're young, Martin in Martin the Warrior and Matthias in Redwall, I have to say that Matthias definitely comes off looking better there. Martin killed Badrang, Matthias held his own against Cluny.

The point where Martin really has the chance to get ahead is at the end of Mossflower, where he gets training from Boar (the greatest swordfighter alive at the time) and survives a fight with Tsarmina. However, I don't know whether that's enough to put him up above Matthias permanently, for three reasons.

1) Firstly, Matthias can be assumed to have received guidance from Martin himself. The Spirit of Martin obviously has greater knowledge and experience than Martin ever did when he was alive.
2) Martin only had a couple of days to train with Boar. He might have learned more in that day then he ever had before, but it takes consistent application and practice to permanently learn new skills and take them to heart. Besides, his fight with Tsarmina left him scarred and with some memory loss, and I'm not sure that we can assume he would have recollected something he picked up in such a short period of time.
3) His fight with Tsarmina was a much closer thing than either of Matthias's battles, and it could easily be argued that he didn't really 'win', in the martial sense. Tsarmina seemed to be in fine fighting shape; her death was caused by her mental disorder, not physical injuries. Matthias was basically unharmed after his fights with Cluny and the Wearet, and physically could have gone on for longer than he did. You can argue that Matthias got lucky in the latter instance: that he should have died from that fall, and it just happened there was something to catch him below. That's a fair statement, but I would say that Martin is equally lucky to have been fighting an insane opponent with extreme aquaphobia right next to a body of water. If it had been Verdauga or Ungatt Trunn, he would have died. As it was he nearly did anyway.

I'm not saying that Martin is worse than Matthias, but I do think that if they were training together, they'd be a pretty even match.

[Vilu Daskar]

I'm honestly not sure that we can conclude Martin has the edge in overall experience.

If we look at them both when they're young, Martin in Martin the Warrior and Matthias in Redwall, I have to say that Matthias definitely comes off looking better there. Martin killed Badrang, Matthias held his own against Cluny.

The point where Martin really has the chance to get ahead is at the end of Mossflower, where he gets training from Boar (the greatest swordfighter alive at the time) and survives a fight with Tsarmina. However, I don't know whether that's enough to put him up above Matthias permanently, for three reasons.

1) Firstly, Matthias can be assumed to have received guidance from Martin himself. The Spirit of Martin obviously has greater knowledge and experience than Martin ever did when he was alive.
2) Martin only had a couple of days to train with Boar. He might have learned more in that day then he ever had before, but it takes consistent application and practice to permanently learn new skills and take them to heart. Besides, his fight with Tsarmina left him scarred and with some memory loss, and I'm not sure that we can assume he would have recollected something he picked up in such a short period of time.
3) His fight with Tsarmina was a much closer thing than either of Matthias's battles, and it could easily be argued that he didn't really 'win', in the martial sense. Tsarmina seemed to be in fine fighting shape; her death was caused by her mental disorder, not physical injuries. Matthias was basically unharmed after his fights with Cluny and the Wearet, and physically could have gone on for longer than he did. You can argue that Matthias got lucky in the latter instance: that he should have died from that fall, and it just happened there was something to catch him below. That's a fair statement, but I would say that Martin is equally lucky to have been fighting an insane opponent with extreme aquaphobia right next to a body of water. If it had been Verdauga or Ungatt Trunn, he would have died. As it was he nearly did anyway.

I'm not saying that Martin is worse than Matthias, but I do think that if they were training together, they'd be a pretty even match.

In number one you said Martin's spirit knew more things than Martin did but you have no idea what happend after Legend of Luken

[James Gryphon]

Regardless of what Martin did after Legend of Luke, I don't see how Martin's spirit couldn't know more than Martin did in life. He would presumably know everything that he knew when he died, plus he has countless seasons watching the going-ons in the world after his death. Add in the possibility that, as a spirit, he might spend his 'time' in-between counseling the Abbey by talking with other great warriors of the past (like Boar, his father, etc.), and this seems like an open-and-shut case.

[Tim Churchmouse]

I voted Matthias because I read Redwall first, then Mattimeo so I got more used to Matthias. When I read Mossflower (which was the one I read after reading Mattimeo) I found Martin quite mysterious. That is only my opinion, though.

[SilentSam]

Well... I kind of like Matthias a bit more..

[Faiyloe]

If they where both older like they where in Mattimeo and Legend of Luke I would say they would be a pretty even match. You get a glimpse of there skill in each book when they do a simple elaborate training exercise. I feel like they are even in there skill at that point however when they first start out I feel that martian had a head start. Growing up in a colony where fighting was a life style and then living a good long time as a slave growing strong and hardened by work.

[Søren]

Martin all day long. I never really took Matthias seriously, or at least not as seriously as Martin. Maybe do in part that I read Mossflower before I read Redwall. I saw the word prequel and never looked back.

[Delthion]

Now this depends on whether it was after Mattimeo or before. If it was after then i would think Matthias, because Matthias seemed to develop well in the years in between, he became more skilled in the arts of war. But if it was before then Martin would win, but this also depends when it was, whether before Mossflower, Legend of Luke and Martin the Warrior is key. But I prefer Matthias, Martin always seemed to just be running away from the places that brought Rose to mind.

[Wylder Treejumper]

Sentimentality has naught to do with skill in battle. An iron defense and an iron heart are two different things (and should remain that way).

[LT Sandpaw]

Isn't Matthias and Martin the same mouse,
That would mean whatever skills Martin has is similar to Matthias. bolstered by Matthias's personal training and experience.
I think it would be close but Matthias will come out on top.