Matthias vs Cluny Fair Fight

[The Skarzs]

Thing with dirty tricks is they often work. Had whatshisname been fighting anyone but Constance when he threw dirt in their eyes, he would most likely have won. While there is honor and glory in fair fighting, if one really wants to not die then they will use things like their environment or special tricks to overcome their opponent.

[Luftwaffles]

Thing with dirty tricks is they often work.

Not only that, but they can be decisive... which brings an interesting point to the table: would that thing that Cluny wields latched on his tail be considered a dirty trick? It is certainly a secondary weapon, and thus, it would give Cluny two weapons total to face Matthias' only sword, but I don't think that he ever used it against him.

[James Gryphon]

Having and using more than one weapon effectively is a mark of skill, not dirtiness. There's a reason why the sword and shield combination was so ubiquitous -- the shield simply provides too much protection to readily forgo. Besides, the shield can be used as a weapon too, by bashing your opponent. Taking on an opponent who had a shield without one of your own is pretty risky, and if you could get away with it then you deserve respect.
Anyway, 'unfair', in my mind, doesn't mean that the two opponents have to be exactly equal in every way; it just means that the environment isn't biased towards one or the other.

@Sierra: This is a case, unfortunately, where the show gave you less than your money's worth. There's a need to condense material, of course, but the show (and also the comic book, which I recently read) do it to the point of making Cluny appear a weaker villain than he was meant to be.

To answer your question about the poison barb, Cluny does attempt to get him with it close to the beginning of the fight, but Matthias blocked it with the shield, and then cut off the tip of Cluny's tail.

[Luftwaffles]

Thanks a lot for your detailed explanation, James. But to be fair -or not, since I haven't read any of the books yet- Redwall seemed like a pretty consistent series to me, nothing seemed to pop out of nowhere (except for Season 2, I'm still trying to figure out what was going on there) and I would dare to say that some of the episodes felt like filler.

Now about Cluny... you know what? My only complaint towards him is that the series portrayed him as to being frankly incompetent (and his obsession with the Abbey was way beyond the point in which it would be acceptable... like a little child obsessed with getting something he can't have). He really lost his tactical advantage very soon by camping near the abbey and at the sight of its watch towers -but it is only fair to remark that he did pull off some nice tricks of his own as well-.

Now back on topic: I agree with what you said about the use of multiple weapons being a matter of skill rather than dirtiness and I honestly forgot about Matthias' shield (I don't know how it happened, but it happened) that makes the battle even again. And I also forgot about Cluny's failed attempt at use his barb.

Once again, I thank you for your detailed explanation, and I will check out the comic

[Lady Ashenwyte]

Also, please define Fair.

[The Skarzs]

Fair: |fay'r|
adj.
1. in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate
- just or appropriate in the circumstances
adv.
1. without cheating or trying to achieve and unjust advantage

[Luftwaffles]

Fair: |fay'r|
adj.
1. in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate
- just or appropriate in the circumstances
adv.
1. without cheating or trying to achieve and unjust advantage

Jajaj, awesome

Also, please define Fair.

Probably a one vs one battle would be considered "fair" for these two. After all, they do have lots allies to help them out. As we said, they do like to pull off some dirty tricks, so a single one vs one battle with no one else interceding would get close enough to fairness here.

[Lady Ashenwyte]

Fair: |fay'r|
adj.
1. in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate
- just or appropriate in the circumstances
adv.
1. without cheating or trying to achieve and unjust advantage

Mhmm.

Also, please define Fair.

Probably a one vs one battle would be considered "fair" for these two. After all, they do have lots allies to help them out. As we said, they do like to pull off some dirty tricks, so a single one vs one battle with no one else interceding would get close enough to fairness here.

They did have a one on one battle in the Belltower though.

[LT Sandpaw]

Wasn't Cluny terrified of Matthias when he first showed up hiding and whatnot. He lost a lot of his advantage from just raw (My nightmare is alivel) After finally getting into the Abbey and killing the Abbot at the peak of his victory he tried to run from Matthias not fight, he didn't start fighting for real until he was forced to fight or die. By that time the shrews and sparrows had basically ended the fight with the rats Cluny didn't have a chance in that one.

[James Gryphon]

I think that's basically what happened in the show, but in the book, Cluny doesn't take much time to get down to business:

Cluny plucked the blazing torch from Killconey's grasp. He flung it at the face of the oncoming warrior. Matthias deflected it with his shield in a cascade of sparks and went after the horde leader. To gain a brief respite, Cluny pushed Killconey into Matthias. The ferret grappled vainly but was cloven in two with one swift stroke. Matthias stepped over the slain ferret, whirling his sword expertly as he pursued Cluny.
...
The thick tail of the Warlord flicked out venomously at Matthias's face. He covered swiftly with his shield as the poisoned metal barb clanged harmlessly off it. Cluny tried again, this time whipping the tail speedily at the young mouse's unprotected legs. Matthias leaped nimbly to one side and swung the sword in a flashing arc. Cluny roared with pain as it severed the tip of his tail. The bloodied stub lay on the grass with the barb still attached. Hurling the Abbot's chair at his adversary, the rat seized an iron spike. Metal clashed on metal as the Warrior Mouse parried Cluny's thrusts.

They battled across the green Abbey lawns, right through the center of the maelstrom of warring creatures. Oblivious to the fighting around them they sought to destroy each other, hacking, stabbing, lunging and swinging in mortal combat.

Cluny only retreats until he has something, besides his tail, approximating a weapon. After he's armed, he fights viciously, and there isn't any indication that he's afraid of his opponent from that point on.

[Luftwaffles]

Fair: |fay'r|
adj.
1. in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate
- just or appropriate in the circumstances
adv.
1. without cheating or trying to achieve and unjust advantage

Mhmm.

Also, please define Fair.

Probably a one vs one battle would be considered "fair" for these two. After all, they do have lots allies to help them out. As we said, they do like to pull off some dirty tricks, so a single one vs one battle with no one else interceding would get close enough to fairness here.

They did have a one on one battle in the Belltower though.

Yeah, most certainly, but that was hardly fair. One of them had a hostage and the other one... yeah.

[Delthion]

Technically it was fair until Cluny took Cornflower hostage. Then only foolishness caused him to let her go and leave himself wide open to any attack.

[The Skarzs]

That was only in the animated series; he had Hugo in the book.

[Delthion]

I never read that as thoroughly as I should have...anyway, just substitute Hugo for where I put Cornflower.

[Luftwaffles]

Technically it was fair until Cluny took Cornflower hostage. Then only foolishness caused him to let her go and leave himself wide open to any attack.

Yeah, but said attack was also really unfair (I mean, come on xD).