What made vermin go bad?

[Wylder Treejumper]

My reasoning, strictly confined to real life, is that Jacques wanted his younger readers to easily be able to tell bad guys from good guys.

In the context of the series' history, willruth's explanation is excellent.

[Izeroth]

 I find it very strange that Jacques said there would be no good vermin, and then proceeded to add good vermin in his later books. Perhaps he had a change of heart after he said that??

[Lutra]

There aren't any true "good" vermin in the books.  Even those that were muddling in gray overtures, such as Veil, were casted off as "evil" at the end when even the Redwallers were trying to determine which aisle Veil fell on.  Even with the upbringing Veil had in the abbey, with not much to remember from his life before living there, its a surprise he turned up "bad".  Most would say that people are products of their environment--if abbey life made up a majority of what Veil would know, then why did he exhibit the "bad" characteristics when he had no knowledge of them?

Oh yeah, its because ferrets are bad in Redwall.  There's no such thing as a good ferret  [/sarcasm but you get the picture]

[Izeroth]

 I think Crumdun was sort of good (he wasn't evil, anyway).

[The Skarzs]

Blaggut was a definite exception to that rule, however. Regardless of what terrible things he probably did before he went to Redwall, the creatures of the abbey eventually did welcome him gladly, treating him as a friend. Of course, it was primarily the Dibbuns who found the most happiness in him being there, but the elders like Simeon, who had more experience with vermin, also accepted him with kindness.

[Rusvul]

I don't think a race can 'go' bad. Actions are what makes someone bad. You can't be 'born bad either.

No, you can't, but it seems vermin are.

I don't think vermin are born bad, necessarily, but maybe with an inclination towards bad. Or perhaps it was just the example that they are set. Perhaps because the races of squirrels, otters, moles, hedgehogs, badgers, and hares don't like them, the vermin don't like them back. And while the "better" races just sit there (Basically), the vermin do something about the fact that they don't like them. Or maybe they're just poor foragers.

That wouldn't explain Veil, I really don't think that bad treatment in the first two months of existence can make someone a bad person.

Prejudiced from the Abbeydwellers, maybe?

Maybe after he started to do bad things with bad intent. But there's no reason that he would have been prejudiced against before he did anything bad. Abbey dwellers seem to be very accepting and kind.

[Captain Tammo]

I think that Brian made vermin bad so that we could easily identify villains versus the "Good guys". The few exceptions in which some vermin were good was just for a plot twist or change of pace, I think.

[The Skarzs]

^

[CaptainRocktree]

^

[Romsca]

Oh yeah, its because ferrets are bad in Redwall.  There's no such thing as a good ferret  [/sarcasm but you get the picture]

I won't say what I think of that...

Anyway...

I'm taking a sociology class right now and we just learned about certain gangs in LA and how they formed and why they continue (this could also apply to vermin, keep reading).

Strain Theory - Since there are not enough resources for everyone there is a strain on society therefore some people respond to it in different ways. Some examples that would apply to vermin: Innovation - try to achieve society's goals (earning money) with abnormal, socially unacceptable means. Rebellion - protest against both society's goals and following norms of behavior

Labeling Theory - People (or vermin in this case) are called "bad" for so long they start to act like it because no more is expected of them

Differential Association - A person (or vermin in this case) learns to favor one subculture or another due to life experiences or socialization

Conflict Theory - History is a series of class struggles and conflicts

[The Skarzs]

Both interesting and very intelligent. Well, we learn something new every day! Thanks for sharing that awesome bit of information with us, Rom.

[Romsca]

You're welcome

[Blaggut]

*Sits in small shack building boat, boredly being the only good vermin in the series other then those two vermin that were kinda indifferent*

[Faiyloe]

I think I have an answer to the veil question. The abbey dwellers all have a miss trust of vermin. Veil was brought up by a naive doting mother who most likely spoiled him. The other abbey dwellers on the other hand didn't trust him most likely blaming him for things he did not do. treating him more severally for things he did do than the other dibbuns. the combination made him indifferent. he started with little things but they just go worse as he was continually reprimanded and accused. he was not treated equally, nor did they ever really trust him.

[LT Sandpaw]

When asking the question bad and what started it in a lore view there's really no way to know. however when looking at it from a readers view its clear that certain species are good, and others are bad.

Actually the only in-between species in the entire deal are lizards. Most of the good ones are just pets that can't even talk.

The randomized good vermin bad woodlander is very rare and varied, personally I think if someone called me something like vermin I would want to hurt them too though.