Matthias- Bad Warrior but Good Strategist

[Coobreedan]

We all know he got a little too much credit, but he did save the abbey.

[James Gryphon]

What credit are you referring to that he got that you don't think he should have got?

I think I might have an idea, but I want to hear it from someone else. I did make an essay once talking about how Matthias was probably underrated, compared to warriors like Martin.

[Coobreedan]

They named everything after him...

[James Gryphon]

I can only think of one thing the Abbey named after him, the Matthias bell -- and that was just one of two. Besides, it makes sense to name the new bell after him when he broke the old one in the line of duty.

Of course, his child is named (partially) after him, but that's not uncommon in familial circles, and I don't think that's what you're referring to.

[Coobreedan]

Oh yeah....It seemed like everything when I read it...

[James Gryphon]

And even if they were going to rename everything after him, if he wasn't there, Cluny would have renamed everything anyway -- so when you consider that, it doesn't really strike me that Matthias got too much credit for anything.

[Dannflor]

He killed asmodeus who any one else would have gotten killed

[Nightfire]

Although Asmodeus was actually stuck in a hole and couldn't move. I don't think him killing the snake was THAT impressive, because Asmodeus could not strike back or dodge a blow. But, as James has said, Matthias IS a good warrior, and a good strategist.

[Plugg Firetail]

Remember though,in Redwall it's said by Constance that they needed him.He also got the shrews,Captain Snow,and Julian to help.This is off topic,but do you find it weird that Guosim(the character) had the same name as the group Guosim?

[Gulo]

Before I start my defense of Matthias' conduct, I would like to say that I like Redwall, and the other early books in the series, precisely because Brian Jacques hadn't worked out a formula yet. This was definitely the most creative time of his career when working on the Redwall series, and I think all of the elements that are out of the norm -- the animals that appear only in Redwall, the difference in character writing (like when Abbot Mortimer harshly reprimands his troops for sleeping on duty; this wouldn't ever, ever happen in the newer books), not all of the Abbeybeasts being orphans, etc. -- are for the better.

Don't get me wrong, the newer books can be good too, and up until Lord Brocktree, I really like all of them, but the first three strike me as standing out a bit above the rest (except for maybe "The Long Patrol").

Now for the first warrior mouse.

I think the problem here is that you're assuming Matthias and Cluny had the same bargain. Cluny demanded that Matthias "throw the sword down or I'll spike [Hugo] like a lollipop".

This, Matthias clearly did not do. If he was a skilled swordthrower,  then he could have done so to the Bell, thus exactly honoring the bargain Cluny intended to make. Instead of doing that, Matthias promised to something other than what Cluny proposed:

"First let the friar go, then I promise on my honor as a warrior that I'll come down."

He does not say that the sword coming down first is a part of this, and Cluny should have seen as much. While I don't think it's a lie, because all the information was "out on the table", so to speak, it does come off as a bit deceitful... however, if Cluny's trying to negotiate Matthias' death, he should carefully examine the clauses and terms in their contract. It's just that simple. If you're going to use someone's honorable nature against them, you should make sure that the promise they're making for you is the promise you wanted them to make.

So Matthias did in fact honor his promise, though it wasn't the one Cluny had in mind. Cluny agreed to Matthias' terms in the revised contract by releasing Friar Hugo. Thus, Matthias fulfilled it by coming down after Cluny had been crushed by the bell.

As far as Mattimeo goes, Matthias' conduct is blameless in this encounter. Matthias challenged Nadaz (and then eventually any beast the Kingdom of Malkariss had to offer) to single combat just for the sake of challenging them to single combat. It was never agreed to by either side that the outcome of the duel would resolve anything in particular, other than the courage of a beast in the Kingdom of Malkariss, and Matthias himself assumes as much, by giving Orlando plans as to what to do in the event that he is killed. Thus trying to pin blame on Matthias for the battle continuing after he was gone simply doesn't make sense.

Now, Orlando the Axe actually did somewhat breach the terms of the single-combat by moving in to stop the Wearet before his duel with Matthias was technically over. However, I fail to see that this is Matthias' fault... and considering that he was clinging to a rope for dear life at the time, I don't think you can really blame him for not having the presence of mind to tell Orlando to stop.

As far as Slagar goes, all I can say is that Matthias let down his guard, one time, while he was studying a wall carving. It was a mistake, sure, but I don't think you can fairly look at everything that happened before and after this incident, then pick this out as an example of how Matthias isn't really that skilled of a warrior. We know he is because of all the vermin he killed, including his nearly killing the Wearet, who was much larger than he was, in spite of the fact that the Wearet was fully rested and Matthias had been on the move all day long, for several days.

But if we're going to pick out mistakes, to prove that the warrior who made them wasn't that good after all, I submit to you:

Then Martin dashed the blood from his vision, and with a bellow of rage he charged the wildcat.

This time she was ready. Tsarmina neatly sidestepped, cruelly striking Martin's back as he plunged by, opening further the wounds she had already inflicted.

If Martin's such a great warrior why did he make such an elementary error?

It isn't a single event that makes or breaks a warrior's career, it's their entire body of work. I can say that Matthias should have been more careful, but I can't say that getting taken out really proves he's any less of a warrior, considering the context.

With the bell I see that is a valid point you raise and perhaps I have misinterpreted it but I always understood that to mean that he would come done and continue fighting Cluny in single combat. And I also always thought the reason he didn't come done and continue to fight Cluny one on one was that he realized he would lose and thus be killed. I don't really think that any of the other great Redwall warriors for example any of the badger lords, the berserk hare from the high rhulian, deyna the taggerung and others like that would slay Cluny with the bell but would rather go down and meet him in single combat. However this is just my opinion.
As far as his pact with Nadaz goes I might be confusing the TV series and the book and there might be some discrepancy but in the TV series at least I'm pretty sure Nadaz says and Matthias agrees winner takes all.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXDNwTY6h1Y&feature=related 1:10 and onwards. I also don't really see him nearly slaying the Wearat as he didn't even wound him that badly and the weapons of the Wearat where not of exceptionally good quality for example the spear and net which he cuts.
The encounter with Slagar I agree but it is also somewhat similar in the way Matthias slew Asmodeus when the serpent got its head stuck in the hole.
I guess though I never really saw Matthias do any exceptional one on one combat feats but I might be wrong. His strategy for guarding Redwall against Cluny was however exceptional. Again IMHO. 
Another question that I have is what kind of training did Matthias have between the time of Redwall and Mattimeo?? As there were no wars or conflicts during that time period and there weren't any skilled swordbeasts to be his instructors at Redwall.
I also think that Martin's warrior prowess is overrated in the series but that is perhaps another topic.

[James Gryphon]

And I also always thought the reason he didn't come done and continue to fight Cluny one on one was that he realized he would lose and thus be killed.

I believe he would have lost too, but probably the best reason why he couldn't have done it is because Cluny didn't intend for him to come down armed at all -- he told Matthias to throw the sword down; in other words, to give up the fight. I understand that there's a similar situation in Sable Quean, where Zwilt tells the hare blademaster to surrender or he'll kill a hostage -- it's the same deal here. If Matthias had tried to come down with his weapon, Cluny would've simply grabbed Hugo again and spiked him.

As far as his pact with Nadaz goes I might be confusing the TV series and the book and there might be some discrepancy but in the TV series at least I'm pretty sure Nadaz says and Matthias agrees winner takes all.

He might very well have said so in the television series, which I've never seen, but in the book, the only thing that's at stake is the courage of the Kingdom of Malkariss. So it is something of a discrepancy, because the breach of honor you mention, while it might in fact be an issue in the animated series, didn't exist in the book as it was originally written.

I also don't really see him nearly slaying the Wearat as he didn't even wound him that badly and the weapons of the Wearat where not of exceptionally good quality for example the spear and net which he cuts.

Well, as far as the weapons, you have to remember that the Wearet is considerably more massive than Matthias is, which I think evens out the difference. Tsarmina Greeneyes only had her claws and teeth when she fought Martin, but I wouldn't say that she was at a disadvantage as far as armament is concerned.

Unfortunately, it's now been a few weeks since I read Mattimeo (I don't have it on hand; it was a library checkout), but I remember both of them getting in some good knocks. Perhaps "nearly killing" was an exaggeration, but I'd say that overall, it was even, or that Matthias (as Basil Stag Hare believed) even had the edge, up until he got knocked over the ledge.

I guess though I never really saw Matthias do any exceptional one on one combat feats but I might be wrong. His strategy for guarding Redwall against Cluny was however exceptional. Again IMHO.

Well, I really see it the opposite way; I feel that both Matthias' fights with Cluny and the Wearet are master-level performances, as I mentioned on the "Best wielders of Martin's sword" topic. I'm not sure that he really influenced much in terms of strategy, though, since he wasn't at Redwall for most of the book; if I was distributing credit, I think I would probably label Constance as the most influential Redwall defender, in overall leadership and strategic influence.

what kind of training did Matthias have between the time of Redwall and Mattimeo?? As there were no wars or conflicts during that time period and there weren't any skilled swordbeasts to be his instructors at Redwall.

That's the great mystery of the Redwall series in general: where these protagonists learned all of their skills, particularly when they were amateurs at the beginning of the books. We at least see the Redwallers training at the beginning of the war in Redwall, so that's something; I can only assume that Matthias learned most of what he knew from stave-fighting and applied the general principles of that to swordsmanship. Since Basil was an ex-Long Patroller, it's possible he might have used a sword at one point or another, which would at least provide Matthias with an instructor. Anything else, like Matthias' surprising skill against Cluny, I'm forced to attribute to Martin's influence.

I also think that Martin's warrior prowess is overrated in the series but that is perhaps another topic.

I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning for that, and you're welcome to start such a topic if you want.

[Taggerung The Otter]

i think he is portraed as another Martin

[AbbotAlf0805]

Matthias is a boss. don't mess with him.

[gorath]

Uhh, he was my least favorite hero.

[Skyblade]

Well, I can't say I blame Matthias for dropping the bell on Cluny. Infact, I find it pretty clever.
Anyway, let me get to the point. Matthias was a novice in an abbey full of peaceful mice who's main job is to provide hospitality and refuge to all. None of them learned warrior skills. Matthias becomes an important figure when the threat of Cluny comes over the abbey. This is the first time something like this has ever happened to him. Though he matures greatly in the book(though I must say that it was a but too fast for my liking) he's still a young mouse who hasn't been trained in the ways of a warrior at the end when he faces Cluny. Of course, I'm not saying he's a bad warrior, just pointing out why him killing Cluny in a different way was a good idea.