Are the vermin treated unfairly?

[Ashleg]

It may just be me, but from Salamandastron and on it seems like Woodlanders were a bit too merciless on the villains.
I'm reading Pearls of Lutra right now (love it!) and I notice that Martin especially seems quick to kill the vermin. Even if they haven't exactly done anything wrong (like that rat he took hostage and threatened to kill. He did nothing bad I know of...)

And so, the basic point is, are the vermin bad because they are treated so?

[Lady Ashenwyte]

I should think so, if the very first generation of woodlanders treated the very first generation of vermin unfairly, they must have said it to the second generation, making them think woodlanders are evil. Just my two cents.

[Ashleg]

I'd have to agree with you on that...

[Izeroth]

 The woodlanders are too merciless on the vermin on some occasions (the Long Parrol are particularly guilty of this). Captain Rake, for example, captures Crumdun, even though he hasn't really done anything. In several books, the woodlander armies pursue and wipe out the fleeing vermin armies, even though their leader had already been killed and they were not a big threat. The only time the woodlanders actually peacefully co-exist with the vermin they defeated is in Marlfox, with the water rats.

[Ashleg]

I think the Long Patrol and most badgers go too hard on them.
As seen in Outcast of Redwall, sometimes hordebeasts have children, who all were killed within the book at some time or another... Poor things.

I think these woodlanders may be a bit more aggressive then we notice on first sight.
I would've loved to see a book where the roles are switched (y'know, a tribe of evil mice would've been interesting to see...)

[The Skarzs]

Romsca had posted something very interesting on a similar topic. . . Lesse if I can dig it up. . .
Here it is!

I'm taking a sociology class right now and we just learned about certain gangs in LA and how they formed and why they continue (this could also apply to vermin, keep reading).

Strain Theory - Since there are not enough resources for everyone there is a strain on society therefore some people respond to it in different ways. Some examples that would apply to vermin: Innovation - try to achieve society's goals (earning money) with abnormal, socially unacceptable means. Rebellion - protest against both society's goals and following norms of behavior

Labeling Theory - People (or vermin in this case) are called "bad" for so long they start to act like it because no more is expected of them

Differential Association - A person (or vermin in this case) learns to favor one subculture or another due to life experiences or socialization

Conflict Theory - History is a series of class struggles and conflicts

[Ashleg]

That makes a lot of sense, actually.
That would explain why they act as they do.

[Søren]

It does make sense. Never even thought about it that way.

[Kitsune]

This is why Mossflower is one of my favorite books; in the end, they let all of the vermin go free. In my opinion the earlier books are better because you see none of this kind of action in the more recent books. BJ said that he made the vermin all of the same kind of creatures so that they would be easily identifiable for children, but maybe he had a different meaning. He could have done this to make people more aware of the injustice in the world, class discrimination, and the horrors of war. I remember that this always bugged me.

[The Skarzs]

Mossflower seems like the most realistic of the books, putting toward it being my favorite book of the series.

[Izeroth]

 I like that the vermin in Mossflower aren't all bloodthirsty barbarians either; they have some sense of civilization, though they aren't exactly "angels," and in the end, they respectfully obey the commands of the woodlanders. They seem, to me, more realistic than those vermin that just want to burn and murder everything.

[Dannflower Reguba]

       Frankly, I'm forced to say no with a firm voice. Evil is one of the worst diseases we face, this evil can be plainly seen in almost every vermin (Swinky? and Blaggut being two of very few exceptions). Russano let Ruggan Bor leave after he was clearly planning on attacking Redwall (Taggerung). As before mentioned, there were the water rats from Marlfox. The painted ones, I believe, from Doomwyte were released. The remains of the Green Eyes in Mossflower were allowed to live. The only time I can think of the vermin being "hunted down" was when they were more so prevented from escaping in the original Redwall. Most of the time, it's a fight to the death, or both sides back off.

       Furthermore, let's do a personality test real quick. Ferhago the Assassin, a cold killer, wouldn't look twice before killing his own mother. Urthstripe? Dedicated to his Hares, and justice (granted, he had a mean temper, but this was always taken out in battle). Cluny the Scourge was as heartless as any, threatening death to any and all questions posed him, whereas you could take any of the leading defenders of the Abbey and they would lay down their own life if it meant somebeast else lived. The Marlfox's? Conniving cowards, they avoid fair fights at all costs, maliciously hurt others and each other for even the slightest personal gain. Dannflower? He sought to protect all from any force, even nature. Choosing to fight for freedom, and with honor. Song? She would rather herself be hurt than those around her so much that she jumped off a cliff after a stranger. Tsarmina? All she really wanted was for everything but her to be dead. Martin fought because he had nothing else to do, and to keep the promise he made to the wildcat (that he would return and kill her with the sword).

       Are the woodlanders perfect? No, Grath sought revenge, the Rogue Crew lived for nothing but killing vermin (and partying possibly, really the vikings of Redwall), Tugga Bruster beat his own, there were a few insane or crazy hedgehogs that enslaved or threatened others. Are the vermin evil? Yes they are, Brian drew very clear lines to represent the good versus the bad. He did not dance on the line he drew, everything was perfectly clear.

[Delthion]

I completely agree!

[Ashleg]

I'm not so much referring to the horde leaders ('cause, yeah, there's no doubt that they're evil!) but more so those that happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, like Ashleg or Romsca, but mostly Veil as an example.
He was the first to be accused about everything because he was a ferret...And then Bryony declares that he was evil, and that she realizes that now, after he saved her life.

[James Gryphon]

We don't know a lot about Ashleg's career before Mossflower, so I can't say much about him, but I do think you might be underestimating just how much of a villain Romsca was. She was first mate on Waveworm, the ship whose crew massacred Holt Lutra. We don't know for sure whether she was on shore at the time, but if I had to guess I'd say so. There's no evidence that any of them stayed on the ship (pirate crews seem to have a way of leaving them unguarded), but if they did, I think it's more likely the ship leader who stayed would've been Conva, the ship's most senior officer and best navigator, instead of the more expendable first mate. She probably murdered a few otters, along with the rest of the crew. She then succeeded Conva, and was chosen by Ublaz "Mad Eyes" to ferry his Monitor General and a corps of the lizards to retrieve the Pearls of Lutra, a mission that they probably figured would involve killing more beasts. None of this takes into consideration the numerous acts of piracy, etc. that would have been involved with her career prior to Pearls of Lutra -- you don't get to be the first mate of anything without being an essential part of the ship's functions. Waveworm's function was raiding and pirating, so it makes sense to assume that she was very experienced in and good at doing those things. She wasn't a victim of circumstance -- she rose to the top by skill and enthusiasm for her job. She told the Abbot that she "liked being a corsair and wasn't ashamed of her life", and there's no reason to disbelieve her.

That's what made her turn at the end of her life so surprising, because there's nothing that suggests she would have done so. She had a distaste for the Monitors, sure, but that was shared by all of her fellow pirates. Simply having a shared enemy doesn't make you someone's friend. Based on her previous life and behavior, we shouldn't have expected her to befriend a peacenik mouse, especially one that she was holding as a prisoner. She did, though, and that's why she's such a well-known character -- not because she was good all along.