Vermin aren't cowards! (at least most of them)

[Luftwaffles]

Some of them are no doubt cowards, but the rest of them seem stupidly brave... like, any person in the right mindset wouldn't do some of the stuff they did.

[Wylder Treejumper]

That's just called being stupid.

[Luftwaffles]

^ I think that "crazy" is a better word to use in this particular case.

[Faiyloe]

In regards to the innocence of vermin. I feel like many people are to hard on the random hoard beast/crew member vermin. Amusing that just because they are vermin and where part of a hoard or corsair crew they did bad things (and enjoyed it). I am not saying they didn't help to do some bad things but there are lots of vermin on the ship if one of them didn't want to play a pivotal role in some heinous act that the crew was committing they could easily avoid it. If they where told out right to do something then you can't blame them for following orders, you have seen the kind of discipline they enforce on those who disobey, even in the slightest.

Another important thing is that they didn't chose to join that hoard/crew (most likely unless stated otherwise) It is a well known fact that warlords press the local vermin into service. They have the choice. Fight for me or die. I don't blame them for wanting to live.

So I don't thinks its fare to say that just because they where with a bad lot means that you can amuse they chose it and deserve to die. Unless in the coarse of the book by their actions they prove that they do indeed have malicious intentions then it is not fair to assume that they are indeed bad to the core and when it come to dealing justice out on a beast it is better to give them the benefit of the doubt than to take their life. Unless they personally killed some one out of cold blood (Not in the heat of combat or self defense but real unprovoked murder) then death is not warranted.

That brings me to another point. Just because a vermin robbed another beast doesn't mean that they are evil (So long as they don't intend them further harm). They have to eat after all. You might say, well why can't they grow there own food? Because they don't know how. What if I dropped you in the middle of the forest and told you to start growing all of your food from scratch. You would probably starve. Well why can't they ask nicely for it like the rest of us? That might of worked early in Redwall history but by the end of the books good beasts became way to suspicious of vermin the only place that might, just might give them some food was Redwall and only after a sever hounding and probably a wash. Even then they would not be treated as equals and would not be trusted as a hole. 


Really I am just saying I don't feel it is fare to stereotype when it meas a death sentience.

(And I wrote this after just finishing reading To Kill a Mockingbird XD)

[Dannflower Reguba]

       Stereotypes are developed by common behaviors exhibited by a certain group. The vermin stereotype is one of the most accurate. In the majority of cases, the vermin chose of their own free will to join up. Also in most cases, they quite happily engage in terrible deeds. A good vermin is the exception, not the rule. Honestly, I think the woodlanders are sometimes too lenient given the fact that I'm absolutely positive many more innocent beasts were harmed because vermin were spared their lives (the Juska horde from Taggerung being the most profound, though killing all of them would certainly be treading a very very fine moral line seeing the circumstances)(also, granted, the Juska aren't seemingly as violent as other vermin groups, so there's a very slight possibility that nothing bad happened from there). To take from another what is theirs is utterly and completely wrong. These vermin didn't just appear here, they've had the chance to learn a way of living that doesn't involve taking what isn't theirs, but they took it anyway, now they pay the consequences of their unjust lifestyle. On top of all that, how is it fair to expect anything other than suspicion from the Redwallers and others after numerous un-provoked assaults, after all the vermin save 1 (Blaggut, Flinky doesn't count) that were accepted into the Abbey only brought great trouble and distress (most notably the killing of brother Hal by Dingeye and Thura). It isn't, suspicion is only to be expected, and justly so.

[Faiyloe]

I am not saying that their are not plenty of vermin who are down right evil and deserve to die but they already proved that to use threw their actions in the book or references to action they did in the past. But there are still vermin who really just didn't know any better and never meant anyone any harm in the end. They where just trying to survive.

I will bring this up again. Globby from Sable Quean had no intention of hurting any of the Readwallers when he sneaked into the abbey, His mind was on one thing, food. Basically he was just hungry. Now you can say, he was with the beast watching the abbey for dibbuns so they could kidnap them, that sounds pretty bad to me. We see very clearly what Zwilt dose to those who disobey him. Globby was under orders to do something and if he didn't he would die. But he was a ravager doesn't that amount to anything? It was made clear that Zwilt pressed beasts into his service under pain of death. Again it is not like he had much choice. but isn't it possible that he did all this stuff willingly and really was an evil villein.  from his actions in the book I really doubt it. First off when he had the perfect opportunity to kidnap some of the dibbuns and run (Perhaps even gain some sort of reward from his superiors) the thought doesn't even cross his mind. So what, you say, he was preoccupied, he might have done it after he filled himself up, we all know vermin are greedy. Well true, but when the Redwallers find him they treat him pretty badly just because he trespassed stole some food and made a mess (Oh and because he was a vermin if he was a mouse they never would have treated him that way no matter what he had done) Even after all that he still is only interested in servile. You never hear him say anything about revenge. When he escapes he is armed with a knife but only to protect himself he has several chances to use it but never does. When he finally dose use it it is a complete accident and it gets him killed.

He seems pretty innocent to me. aside from a little theft and trespassing, but good beasts have done worse.


 

[rrrrr]

Aaah!! the debates!!!

When I read The Bellmaker, it was tense the whole way through because Blaggut and Slipp who were bad were consistently plotting despite the care toward them.

[Izeroth]

 Perhaps the title of this thread should be changed. It seems like we're mostly debating about whether vermin are inherently bad, rather than if they're cowards.

[Dannflower Reguba]

       And when they do they pay for it. That's one example, we've compiled a list totaling 4 vermin that could be considered good or grey. 4 out of COUNTLESS. The exception, not the rule. Also, the goodbeasts are punished for doing wrong, there have been instances where a protagonist was full on exiled from the Abbey for what could be considered minor misdemeanor's. Also, given the current state of affairs, it'd be stupid of the Abbeybeasts to not exercise caution when a vermin is found snooping around and messing with the Abbey! If some dude just walked into your kitchen, and looked exactly like a guy from a gang know for countless murders, I don't think you'd be very welcoming! I wouldn't!

[James Gryphon]

Made a list of vermin creatures that could be considered good or grey. "Good" characters are those who lived peacefully with woodlanders. "Grey" is used to mean "not evil", and the criteria to fit into that group is much looser; basically, I counted anyone who took some action to go towards a more peaceful life and/or who, at least, are never depicted doing anything worthy of death.

Good:
Julian Gingivere Redwall: I feel the decision to name these top three characters as even "vermin" is a retroactive one. Technically speaking, cats could not be fairly classified as an evil species, going just by their appearances as of Mossflower. In fact, at that time there were actually more good cats than bad ones, and one of the 'bad' cats was Verdauga, a much more nuanced villain than usual. All of the cats that appeared Lord Brocktree on were villainous, though, which I suppose leads to the modern perception of the species.
Gingivere Mossflower
Sandingomm Mossflower
Blaggut The Bellmaker
Graylunk Pearls of Lutra (by injury): His head injury saved him; in his 'right' mind, he would undeniably classify as evil.
Grubbage Triss: Never does anything evil. Accepted as a friend by the protagonists.

Grey:
Ashleg Mossflower (by fate): Deserts the horde, leaving behind "dreams of ambitious conquest", to seek out "a new way of life" and "friends who knew how to live simply, without delusions of grandeur".
Bluefen Outcast of Redwall: Portrayed sympathetically; never does anything evil.
Veil Outcast of Redwall
Romsca Pearls of Lutra
Sneezewort Long Patrol: Deserted from the horde; doesn't intentionally do evil.
Lousewort Long Patrol: Deserted from the horde; doesn't intentionally do evil.
Water rat farmers Marlfox epilogue (by fate): Ruled over by Megraw and converted into farming.
Flinky Loamhedge (by fate): A bit of an ambiguous case because he tried to kill Badredd, but ultimately counts because he and his group, including Badredd, end up living peacefully.
Crinktail Loamhedge (by fate): Flinky's mate.
Globby The Sable Quean (arguably): I have this book and I will reread it to see what I think; until then I'm including him due to Faiy's arguments.
Crumdun Rogue Crew: Deserted from the ship; doesn't intentionally do evil.
Voogal Rogue Crew (by fate): Was a cooperative prisoner; left in the care of the Fortunate Freepaws.

I debated whether to put Dingeye and Thura on the list, and decided to leave them off at this time. The killing was an accident and not something that I would consider a dealbreaker (the Redwallers even thought that Samkim had done it at first; if the stoats hadn't done it, Samkim probably would have eventually, with his reckless arrow-shooting), but other circumstances have inclined me to leave them off this first go at the list. Perhaps that can change later.

As far as Greypatch goes, he's one of my favorite villains, so I definitely have an opinion about him.   It would be one thing if he was pressed into service, but he wasn't; he was Gabool's first mate and best friend for many seasons, raiding the high seas and capturing slaves (like Skrabblag). As captain of Darkqueen, he continued the usual corsair practice, taking and keeping woodlander slaves, and never deviated from this. His own crew (none of them were angels) thought he was being awfully cold in offering no quarter and shooting down everyone in their skirmish with Greenfang's crew, as some of those rats had been their friends and might have joined them.

So, he deserved to die if anybody did. I think that he has to be considered villainous. The problem I think people have with his death is that it was done execution-style, as he was functionally unarmed and requested leniency. That said, his crimes merit it. Personally, I still might have shown mercy, but Oak Tom didn't, and that was his prerogative.

[Dannflower Reguba]

       I personally never counted the Wildcats as vermin (for a number of reasons), and just by taking a quick look you'll notice the ratio of good to bad cats is way higher than the ratio of good to bad vermin. Counting, even the many cats from High Rhulain that were downright evil, we still only have some couple hundred, and there were several who did, indeed, exhibit acceptable or better behavior. In short, I don't feel comparing them along with actual vermin is fair. That aside, I'd have put Verdauga in the grey area because he was still at least a bit oppressive, or at least that's the feel I get when I read the book. Also, aside from what little IS stated in Mossflower, we don't know particularly much about him. He was more lenient than most, that can't be denied, but he's no Blaggut.

[Jetthebinturong]

I think Dingeye and Thura should be considered grey. They deserted the corpsemakers because they didn't like the lifestyle and it would seem they planned to stay at the abbey forever until they accidentally killed Brother Hal. And no I do not think that that is worthy of punishment, they had no idea he was there at all. As James pointed out, Samkim would have killed someone sooner or later so to judge them for doing the same seems unfair.

[clunylooney]

Here's how I would categorize cowardly, non cowardly and It's hard to say:

Cowardly:
Slagar the Cruel
Badrang the Tyrant
Urgan Nagru the Foxwolf
Swartt Sixclaw
Mokkan
Vilu Daskar
Gruven Zann
Princess Kurda
Vizka Longtooth
Korvus Skurr

Non - Cowardly:
Cluny the Scourge
Gabool the Wild
Ferahgo the Assassin
Sawney Rath
Vallug Bowbeast
Eefera
Gulo the Savage
Riggu Felis

It's hard to say:
Tsarmina Greeneyes
Ublaz Mad Eyes
Damug Warfang
Ungatt Trunn
Raga Bol

I haven't finished The Rogue Crew so I'll update this when I've read it.