Vermin - inherently "bad"?

[BadgerLordFiredrake]

Nature vs nurture?

[rrrrr]

Both?

[BadgerLordFiredrake]

What about that vermin that was raised in the Abbey?

What about Blaggut?

[rrrrr]

Oh yeah!

Maybe that was his conscience.

[The Skarzs]

There are several discussions about this that have popped up in different topics, but it seems they are bad by nature in the book. Otherwise, they would be like people: a German growing up in Italy would probably learn Italian, and someone growing up in a place where everyone is virtuous will glean from that.

[rrrrr]

How about Deyna?

[Izzian]

I would like to believe that not all vermin are inherently evil; take Gingivere for example. Even though he was raised in a manner in which cruelty is accepted, he himself showed no signs of it.
Of course, each creature is different, but just as there are bad woodlanders, there can be good vermin, or so I believe.

[rrrrr]

I think Gingivere is just polite.

But mostly vermin are just vermin, and woodlanders are just woodlanders.

[Lady Ashenwyte]

I think Gingivere is just polite.

If Gingivere was just polite, he wouldn't have taken care of Ferdy and Coggs and he wouldn't have joined the woodlanders, and would have joined his sister.

But mostly vermin are just vermin, and woodlanders are just woodlanders.

What does this mean?

[JangoCoolguy]

But mostly vermin are just vermin, and woodlanders are just woodlanders.

What does this mean?

It was essentially a general rule by used by Jacques where woodlanders species were almost (always) good and vermin species were (almost) always bad no matter what.

[Stellamara]

I thought that it was interesting that at the end of Mariel, the vermin that had been serving the Marlfoxes basically threw down their weapons and went off to become farmers. They were relieved to be free of all that crazy!

[Daggertooth is a Derp]

In the goodbeast's eyes, yes, because the vermin are predators to the prey and couldn't give less of a really bad stuff that they're enslaving/killing animals that would be their prey in the real world.

In our eyes, no, as to us ferrets, weasels, rats and such are just acting on their nature and what they were taught. That's why we see vermin acting kindly to each other but then being complete jerks to the goodbeasts.

No matter how anthropomorphized they may be, they are still different species and will respond differently.

Sure, if cows suddenly started walking on two legs, wearing clothes, and talking we may stop eating them for a while but soon we'd get used to it and beef would be on the menu again~

[SoranMBane]

It's not a matter of nature or nurture; it's a matter of the allegory at play. The different species in Redwall represent different personality archetypes in people, and most of these species are characterized based on their reputation in popular culture rather than on how those species act in real life (hence why crows and ravens are all brutish and savage, whereas they'd be the smartest creatures we see in the whole series if it was being realistic). So, vermin are almost always bad because those species represent the kinds of people who are dishonest, cruel, cowardly, or weak-willed. There are also examples of vermin that were both simply born evil, and vermin that were raised/forced into it, because that's how it is for people too. Some people are born bad, some are made bad by their environment, and others only do bad things out of pure complacency rather than malice. Those few vermin that manage to buck the "vermin = evil" trend are usually the ones that were in the "forced into it/complacent" camp, or else part of a species that has both good and bad connotations in our culture (like cats).

[The Grey Coincidence]

Vermin aren't bad. They're self-serving. Anything good for them? They'll take it. It's just their selfish desire to be the best that makes them so. They don't have reservations- woodlanders do.
Blaggut? Well he was a simpleton, and liked building boats for the dibbuns. People forget that he strangled his captain before returning to the abbey. He was good, because his desires weren't mass wealth and cruelty. He wanted to stay at the abbey, and to achieve this desire he strangled his captain.
Veil? He died saving Byrony... He didn't want Byrony to get hurt and took the only option he had to achieve this desire.
Vermin want what they want and will do whatever it takes to get what they want, be it staying alive, conquering Redwall.etc They pull out all the stops.

[Eila Wanderstream]

It's always bothered me that vermin are bad no matter what - by all rights, Veil should have turned out right, unless Bryony spoiled him, which isn't a popular idea. Blaggut was always one of my favorites, as was the searat from Martin the Warrior that Brome grew close to. Perhaps becuse so few vermin are good, I've actually ended up making a troupe of fighters that travel together composed of two ferrets, an otter, and a mute fox. One of the ferrets was actually a leader of an invading horde before the other ferret came along....
When you do stuff like that, it makes them seem more realistic, like these are creatures behave similarly to people.....
I like the idea that it's because they represent a certain class of people rather than that its due to species-wide rotteness.
I can also see and agree with the fact that their evilness is contributed to our culture's opinion of them, but mice are pests as well as rats, and both ferrets and foxes are actually rather popular animals......