Vermin - inherently "bad"?

[The Skarzs]

Indeed.
A fellow member and I are writing a fanfic that plays with this idea (well, more of grab it, choke it, and try to fix it by killing it and bringing it back to life). It's in the editing stage right now, so hopefully you'll be seeing it within the next month!

[Grond]

One spin on this topic, that I've never seen discussed before, is are the majority of vermin "born bad" or is it just a few vermin who end up being in positions of power in vermin hordes. An example of this is the grey rats in Marlfox- when the marlfoxes were killed along with a few of the commanding rats, the rest of them took up a life as farmers. By all accounts they were pretty content and didn't cause any further problems. While this case most clearly illustrates this point, another somewhat related example would be the Thousand Eyes horde following the destruction of Kotir. They were forced to leave Mossflower and while it isn't stated what became of them there isn't any reason to assume they went on to be murderers, thieves etc...

[The Grey Coincidence]

Indeed.
A fellow member and I are writing a fanfic that plays with this idea (well, more of grab it, choke it, and try to fix it by killing it and bringing it back to life). It's in the editing stage right now, so hopefully you'll be seeing it within the next month!

Glad to hear it, I have been waiting...
As for Grond's spin...
I think it comes back down to position. The way I see it vermin species have got a tendency towards being evil, like an instinct, but can choose to embrace it or ignore-though most aren't made aware that they have it. (Along with my earlier posts about not having moral boundaries). They just want to be happy.
To cite an example
The waterrats from Marlfox were content with being farmers because it was better to be a farmer than to suffer under the rule of Queen Silth and her brood. We never hear from them again though, so I think it's only a matter of time until some warlord shows up and makes another horde out of them. And then they'll get scared and obey to save themselves from getting killed in some cruel way. Then the ambitious ones rise up and become captains and gain power, and finally the warlord gets killed and the survivors scatter. Most don't think about the morality behind what they do and if it's kill that mouse or die (as it generally is) they'll be lining up to behead him! Or it'll be get that mouse and you can have a nice big cake- and not knowing or caring about anybeast but themselves- they'll still lign up to kill him. Naturally love complicates things and vermin are capable of love, so there are a lot of variables.
That is just a generic example of how they work. They're born with an inclination to be bad and then it's really just a coinflip of life as to how they actually end up.

On another note: Fanfics about this really interest me, anybeast know any good ones?

[The Skarzs]

It's a self-perpetuating cycle, it seems, very much like the way you described, Grey.
As another member said a long while ago, much like real life cultures where crime is commonplace, the children are taught or shown a that life is a certain way, they haven't seen anything else, and so they continue that type of action, further continuing the cycle.

I think, if vermin were able to be left to live for a generation or three, that tendency towards evil may diminish.

[Eila Wanderstream]

Makes me wonder what would happen if Blaggut had had kids?
Also, what about the cat that Gingivere married? We're never told where she comes from.... And as we know from the original Redwall book, Skarzs' prediction about the evil tendencies diminishing has been proven correct - at least for cats, who were always kind of odd eggs anyway.

[The Grey Coincidence]

Makes me wonder what would happen if Blaggut had had kids?
Also, what about the cat that Gingivere married? We're never told where she comes from.... And as we know from the original Redwall book, Skarzs' prediction about the evil tendencies diminishing has been proven correct - at least for cats, who were always kind of odd eggs anyway.

Well did Blaggut have kids with a mouse or with another rat? I can just imagine some rat corsair sneaking into Redwall and falling for the great big lovable Blaggut-even though she would act like your typical vermin and he... really doesn't. If it's with a mouse then... would they be able to breed?
Well evil tendencies diminishing... I guess I kind of agree with that. But like I said it's a coinflip, and even the goodbeasts have been shown going crazy from revenge and the like. So yeah... onions...layers...

[The Skarzs]

To my knowledge, rats and mice can't breed. Or, if they can, the offspring will be unable to reproduce, like ligers or mules. That's the case with a lot of crossbreeds, even if they are similar.

[Ashleg]

They can't; though it's not to say in Redwall they can't, since other, weirder hybrids exist.

[Eila Wanderstream]

True. I mean, a Wearat? Though he didn't turn out very healthy, I noticed. Big and strong, but earless and mangy.... Ick. It would be like an otter-squirrel.

[The Grey Coincidence]

Rats and Mice look more breedable than squirrels and otters... an otter would probably find more luck in some of the vermin species, I mean they are all mustelids...technically.

[The Skarzs]

Yeah. . . Gets into some weird territory, talking about their real-life counterparts.

As for the wearet. . . Not the most outlandish thing I've heard. Ferrets and weasels are similar in physique, but it would be the same as a rat-mouse.

[Jetthebinturong]

No not the wearets. The wearat. Singular. Razzid wearat.

[The Skarzs]

Oh. Yeah, that one wouldn't work.