Those we Redwallers call 'Mary-Sues.'

[Starla1431]

We always think about the Mary Sues but what about the Gary Stus? Can you think of a single character flaw in any of the main male protagonists?

Deyna? Or aka The Taggerung. I find him a bit of a Gary Stu.

[Jetthebinturong]

No I mean, can you think of any that aren't? Any character who's a bit stupid? Any who can't fight? No. I think the only male protagonist who isn't a sue is Mattimeo and he's insufferable anyway. That's why I forgive Redwall for its sues, because they're just a few among many.

[Starla1431]

No I mean, can you think of any that aren't? Any character who's a bit stupid? Any who can't fight? No. I think the only male protagonist who isn't a sue is Mattimeo and he's insufferable anyway. That's why I forgive Redwall for its sues, because they're just a few among many.

I can think of Uggo.

[Skyblade]

Wow. I did mention Gary Stus earlier. Well, I always thought that Martin and the like were very... righteous and incredible. But does that make them Stus?

Hope to have a friendly debate, and not a vehement argument.

[Jetthebinturong]

No I mean, can you think of any that aren't? Any character who's a bit stupid? Any who can't fight? No. I think the only male protagonist who isn't a sue is Mattimeo and he's insufferable anyway. That's why I forgive Redwall for its sues, because they're just a few among many.

I can think of Uggo.

Eh, I consider Gorath the protagonist of that book. But Uggo is definitely not a Stu.

Wow. I did mention Gary Stus earlier. Well, I always thought that Martin and the like were very... righteous and incredible. But does that make them Stus?

Not in and of itself but if they have no negative qualities (which they don't in my view.) then they are Stus. That's why I don't understand the argument that Mariel is a Sue. She can't sing, she's angry and rude, she uses a rope as a weapon, she's impetuous and, to be quite frank, rather stupid. She mellows out by Bellmaker but in her own book I can't call her a Sue.

[Dannflower Reguba]

       Reminder, this topic is specifically about Marry Sues, and I could go on for quite awhile about flawed male characters (Dandin was useless [Mariel, go figure], Samkim was too eager/ headstrong, Gonff was a thief, Dannflor had an inferiority complex, Tammo was disrespectful, and Martin struggled with severe depression. I could go on, but I'm already going against what I stated at the start of the post).

[The Skarzs]

 Martin had his flaws, though they weren't very abundant. For example, he did his share of lying, like with the Gawtrybe and I believe somewhere in Legend of Luke. He also tricked that hedgehog so he could knock out his rotten tooth.
 Many of us know people in real life who seem to have no real visible flaws/bad spots. This doesn't mean they aren't there, we either don't notice them through seeing what is good about them or something else.

[rrrrr]

Mariel is definitely not a Sue.

[James Gryphon]

Mariel is definitely not a Sue.

Well, what makes you say that?

[Starla1431]

Eh, I consider Gorath the protagonist of that book. But Uggo is definitely not a Stu

You're thinking of Orkwil from Eulalia, I'm talking about the hedgehog from The Rogue Crew.

[Skyblade]

I don't see why we can't talk about Gary-stus in this thread.

How does one identify a Sue, anyway? Some are rather debatable.

[Lady Ashenwyte]

How does one identify a Sue, anyway? Some are rather debatable.

Sues are generally perfect and without major flaws. That's the core of it.

[Skyblade]

I know that...it just seems that Sues and Stus are very debatable (ex. Mariel).

[Dannflower Reguba]

       We live in a world were everything is debatable, even if it isn't. Before I continue, I want to state that I'm not pointing out anyone in this thread, I'm simply making a general point. People are heavily opinionated, and will fight tooth & claw to prove that they're right. It doesn't matter if they're obviously wrong, they'll fight to the end because being wrong is.... well, wrong. I personally think that Mariel's the most obvious Sue in the series, others think she's not (again, NOT saying that people that dis-agree with me are blatantly stupid or wrong, just using this as an example), there are now two sides to the same character, and both sides would be willing to present they're interpretation of the same evidence. For instance, one could argue that Mariel isn't a Sue because of her attitude, my counter would be that this is actually proof she is because nothing negative ever comes of her temper. And there you have it, two interpretations of the same evidence. We all tend to see things the way we want them to be, and being human, we want everyone else to see things our way because we're never wrong.

[Jetthebinturong]

Saying that nothing negative comes of her temper is a bit silly; she got thrown into the sea because of it.