Mary-Sues

[Wylder Treejumper]

We had a good discussion going on this back at the old forum. What mary-sues come to mind from Redwall? Personally, I always though Mariel was a sue, but never Rose.

[Jetthebinturong]

Almost all of the main male protagonists. Particularly Martin and Deyna.

[Wylder Treejumper]

I don't know about Martin. He almost died several times. Tsarmina would have killed him sans her fear of water, I think.

As for Deyna, I agree there. Still, I thought he was a good character, sueishness notwithstanding.

[Groddil]

Serious Spoiler, How could you ever know this character was a Mary-Sue, I mean come on, they're so perfect, leave them alone, cheese, 3i91nrifoqefnwsfm!

[close]

On a more serious side, Tvtropes has some good info on how Deyna's morality code doesn't work. He's been brought up to be a ruthless killing machine, every other creature in the tribe are evil and vicious, so there is no way that he could be good somehow, especially since he does not remember Redwall or his father or any other sources of "positiveness."

[Wylder Treejumper]

Not necessarily true. I've known some people who turned out very different from the way they should have according to their lives.

[The Skarzs]

It would also have to do with personality. While he may not like killing or acting like vermin do, the only thing he was taught was killing and whatnot, so even if his personality was more like Redwallers', his morality would probably be the affected part of him. For example, instead of talking things out, a more immediate response to disagreements would be physical, since that is what he was taught and grew up with. Sure, he would probably learn, but it would never be the same.

[James Gryphon]

The trouble with Deyna is that we already had a counterpart for how a character raised by the opposite side "should" be in Veil. Veil trended good with a dark streak up until he grew up, when he finally crossed over and became evil with a bright streak. Denya is good from the beginning, without ever experiencing any serious moral doubts or any transition from one side to another. Many of the good guys in the series have less qualms with hurting or 'mistreating' enemies than him. I think if you took Grath Longfletch's personality and plopped it into Deyna, that would probably be closer to what people would expect than what we got.

Anyway, on a more general note, here's a spreadsheet I made up ranking Sue-ishness, covering most of the books I remember reading. I don't bother ranking villains. If there's a major secondary protagonist, they might be in there too. Suggestions for characters to put on the list are more than welcome.

I only consider a character "definitely a Sue" if they are Sue-y in both categories. Mariel, with her unmatched combat talent and informed character flaws, meets this. Tiria is appropriately the Queen of Sues by this standard. Meanwhile, characters like Redwall Matthias (who is a world-class fighter by the end of Redwall, but otherwise relatively ordinary), or Rose (who is beautiful, has an exquisite singing voice, and can make perfect imitations of bird noises, but is a terrible fighter) fall short. These characters might be Sues by other series' definitions, but to be a true Redwall Sue, you have to have a perfect storm of Sueness going; after all, incredible beauty, great singing, or brilliant swordsmanship in and of themselves aren't that hard to come by here.

Some of these characters are also ranked lower because I consider the villains they faced against to have been unusually weak. Triss isn't considered a fighting Sue simply because Kurda was awful, and beating her isn't much of an accomplishment. Rakkety Tam gets away with effortlessly eluding and sneaking through Gulo's horde because they're especially inept.

[rachel25]

Denya is still one of my favourite redwall characters, mostly I just the book. (I've read it about three times) But I did like him as a character. Compared to most I wouldn't rank him too high as a sue, there are way suer characters to be found.

[Groddil]

I'm in the middle of The Taggerung at the moment, and I quite like it, but nonetheless, Deyna seems too perfect. He just doesn't do anything wrong whatsoever.

[rachel25]

He can be a bit squeaky clean at times but doesn't change the fact that I love the book. Which is weird because I'm usually attracted to more grey characters with conflicting characteristics.

[Banya]

I'm with you there, Rachel.  I love the grey characters, but I love Deyna too.  I think that the immediate impression others have of him, as a tattooed rogue, and his fighting ability contrast with his gentle and caring personality so well that he doesn't immediately appear to be a sue (or a stu, or whatever the male equivalent is).  He also has something that other supposed mary-sue characters don't: he is able to live among the evil.  I'm not arguing that he's not a mary-sue character, because when analyzing him, he appears to be, but unlike Tiria and other mary-sue characters, he was accepted by the evil side.  Even though it was stated in the book that he had never taken another life, he did perform acts of strength and display talents while training with weapons (like Vallug training him in archery) that made him respected by the vermin.  Mariel lived among the vermin as a slave; she wasn't accepted by them.  His ability to live among them keeps him from being squeaky-clean in my eyes, and also makes his character more appealing.

It's been several years since reading Eulalia!, but would anyone who's read it a little more recently consider Salixa a sue?  When you replace fighting prowess with her healing abilities, she might qualify.  Mary-sues just have to have unrealistic abilities; those abilities don't necessarily have to be in combat.

[Jetthebinturong]

Regarding Martin: A Sue is not a character that can't be defeated; a Sue is usually a character with no negative qualities. Can anyone think of negative qualities that Martin has? Because I can't.

Also James, how does your chart work? You give a number for their fighting prowess (which is less significant than their personality traits), a number for "everything else" and then a completely unrelated number as a total? What?

[The Skarzs]

I was confused by that as well.

[Rainshadow]

Also James, how does your chart work? You give a number for their fighting prowess (which is less significant than their personality traits), a number for "everything else" and then a completely unrelated number as a total? What?

  The "Fighting" and "Everything Else" numbers are squared. 

[Skyblade]

I haven't read Taggerung yet, but I'll go off what I've heard about Deyna. If he was raised in an environment with only evil influences, where did he even get the idea of being good in the first place?

Are "good beasts" (mice, squirrels, badgers, etc.) just born with an ethical conduct that intrinsically makes them well, good? Likewise, are vermin just inherently evil? That would explain why Veil didn't turn out good even though he grew up in Redwall, while Deyna didn't turn out bad after being raised by vermin.

In addition, if that is the norm, it may lesson Deyna's Sueness since he's just following an established trait of his species. On the other hand, if this morality is not innate, it makes it even more likely that Deyna is a Sue because it means he's unreasonably virtuous for some reason.

I've also heard that Deyna survived something that should have probably killed him.

It's been several years since reading Eulalia!, but would anyone who's read it a little more recently consider Salixa a sue?  When you replace fighting prowess with her healing abilities, she might qualify.  Mary-sues just have to have unrealistic abilities; those abilities don't necessarily have to be in combat.

The skill does have to be useful, though; it's not Sue-ish to be impressive at underwater basket weaving Anyway, good points. I have the novel with me, and Salixa does seem to be in Sue territory.

She's good at:
- Healing. "He's teaching me to be a healer, I know lots of plants and herbs, even tree barks and roots." (page 273)
- Fighting. Salixa immediately proved she was no helpless maid. Unwinding a slingshot from her slender waist, she gathered up a few of the hard streambed pebbles which had been thrown by the Brownrats and began retaliating vigorously. (page 300)
- Singing. Everybeast heard the plaintive sweet voice, which, though gentle, seemed to radiate around the plateau. (page 346)

Other facts. Not sure if they're Sue-ish, but worth considering:
- She had a traumatic childhood. She didn't know her parents, and she was tortured by a vermin band.
- Gorath was fond of her right after he met her.
- She's slender, while most badgers are bulky, and she is considered beautiful.