Shoutbox Feedback

[Lutra]

Just sharing that I've read some replies here, and I have gone and shared my opinion with Matthias and James on the future of the shoutbox.  I think shoutboxes are detrimental to forum activity and are unnecessary (to put it kindly).

[Delthion]

I like this forum much, much more now than I did when the shout box existed.

[Skyblade]

I may have been against the Shoutbox's death initially, but I've changed my mind after it's been done. Now, people are more encouraged to post in the Cellars - where things are less hectic, easy to moderate, and can be archived for future enjoyment In all honesty, I don't even think an alternative to the Shoutbox may be necessary. If people want to engage in friendly conversation about certain topics, we always have PM.

[Dannflower Reguba]

       I've been for the shoutbox since before it was even created. Usage of it is purely by choice, even seeing it is by choice. PM's aren't as fluid, inclusive, or as fast. Topics take way longer for even a chance at a reply (the shoutbox has been utilized on many occasions as a way to get someone else to post a response in topic ****).

       On placing it in the Cellars: I'm against that, because I spend the vast majority of my time in the Role-Play section, and not being able to participate in a conversation simply because I'm in a different board bugs me. I also hate having multiple tabs open (of the same site), because the switching back and forth is unnecessary.

       On getting to know people: The argument was made that things to know about someone would be lost in the history... Isn't that how it should be? Say someone posts a topic about themselves, and 7 months later, a greenie comes along and reads it. Now their perspective/understanding of that person is 7 months out-of-date. People change, their favorite color could be different, their opinion of Sue's could have changed, maybe they moved, changed interests, dislike something they formerly loved. I personally feel like you should get to know someone's present self, not who they were back when they posted God-knows how long ago. [Case in point being that I've been a part of the forums for years, and if someone made assumptions/speculations/etc. about me based on how I introduced myself all those years ago, I'd be a bit ticked off.

       On Cellars traffic: I view this as a good thing, I never really got to know any of the cellar-exclusive people (being a Role-Player that dabbles in real-world or Redwall universe opinions and conversations). So the addition helped to bridge a gap that I've had issues with.

       On traffic in general: Blaming loss of traffic based on activity compared between old & new forum is just blatantly unfair. We lost members the day the old forum went down, I myself was lucky to find out that this even existed. Also, getting new members is exceedingly more difficult now (because who's going to type soopergrape.RAF in as their URL/search?). People look for Redwall Abbey, and now they'll draw a blank when it comes to the forum. Also, their's a point to be made about how the more serious boards were never as popular as the goofing off ones (hence why I like cellar traffic going down), and my reason for not using them much anymore is because I've already stated my opinions.... many times. I don't have as much to add to those boards anymore, hence why I Role-Play (and because Role-Playing is awesome). On the topic of Role-Play OOC: Is it really wrong for a quick point to be sorted out in the shoutbox? If I've got a minor note or two for someone I want taken care of without wasting someone's time checking that "NEW!" mark that turns out to be a 2-liner in the topic, then why should I when a quick comment can be made instead? When compared to the shoutbox, PM'ing is a hassle outside of specifically personal conversation.

       On "where do we draw the line?": Here is a pretty good spot. I would be against personal chat rooms, or even group chat rooms, because THAT is when the forum would ACTUALLY start looking like other forms of social media. Thing is that, as it stands, the forum is not like social media despite the fact that socializing really is one of the primary functions it serves. Have you even seen a shoutbox on Facebook? No! Because you couldn't have that, that's why they have private chat rooms. We have things like this because our community is small, and generally gracious. I've personally yet to see any major explosions on the shoutbox, and I know what an explosion looks like better than almost anyone. Why? Because I HAVE exploded, on the old forum, and many times. I argued dawn-to-dusk with AbbotAlf, we couldn't find anything to agree on. We didn't need a shoutbox to argue in, it happened anyway, and far worse I might add. Over time, we managed to become friends, but the fact remains the fault was in us. Same thing goes here, the thought that keeps coming back to my mind when I see people complaining about the shoutbox is that they're always trying to pin the blame for this that and the other thing on the shoutbox feature. The forum as a WHOLE is entirely unnecessary, so why does it exist? Purely convenience, it is for enjoyment, a way to connect. The shoutbox is the same way, it's for convenience, enjoyment, connection. Just because it's not for you doesn't mean you should destroy it.   

[Groddil]

@danflorreguba: Amen. Couldn't agree more.

[James Gryphon]

Here's my new book! No chapters or page numbers yet, but maybe I can add those in later.

Usage of [the shoutbox] is purely by choice, even seeing it is by choice.

I have to disagree.

It's not a matter of debate that the shoutbox had become extremely popular, or that it had taken on all of the varied roles I described in my previous post. That is obvious for everyone to see. The trouble is that it did this to the exclusion of the regular forum. If you wanted to know what was going on in a large segment of the community's lives, you were now forced to either use the shoutbox or hope that some of the info from the conversations there trickled down to grace the rest of the forum. I'm not sure it's fair to say something is a "choice" if not using it inevitably results in getting a subpar experience.

PM's aren't as fluid, inclusive, or as fast...Topics take way longer for even a chance at a reply...

Comments on the speed of one method versus another come off to me sounding as much like a complaint about the presentation of the forum>board>topic system than they do praise for the shoutbox. There are things that could conceivably be done to make it faster and easier to go from post to post. If that's what you all want, then we'll try to find a way to get it done. For an example, one somewhat wack idea I've had is to have every board's contents (or at least the most recent topics and posts) on one page. What would you think about that? Do you have some other way of redesigning the index/board pages in mind? (I do have to admit that doing something with these ideas could take a while, as time and programming skill are both resources in great demand among the Staff's ranks, a detail you might have been able to ascertain by me doing the coding work .)

On getting to know people: The argument was made that things to know about someone would be lost in the history... Isn't that how it should be? ...

Not the way I see it, though I suppose this is somewhat a matter of personal perception.

I feel that knowledge is cumulative, building on itself. Suppose that we went and burned every book as soon as it became 'outdated'. Imagine how many of the details and nuances of history would be lost to time! I'm interested in knowing about the entire fabric of someone's life, not just how things are at this very moment. Not only is there far more material to appreciate, I think it gives me a better understanding of someone to know both their past and the present, rather than just the present. Sure, it takes more time, but what is the use of time if it isn't spent gaining a deeper appreciation of the nuances of life? We can flit from one new experience to another, and many do, but I prefer a relationship with some history. (That is why I prefer cats to kittens, a very unpopular stance in this day and age. ) Even if we accept that someone from, say, a year ago is a different person than how they are now, that means that with the board-and-thread system, we effectively have two people interacting with and communicating a message for our present-day reader to appreciate, not just one. But all of those details are lost in the chaotic mill of the shoutbox.

On traffic in general: Blaming loss of traffic based on activity compared between old & new forum is just blatantly unfair. We lost members the day the old forum went down.

Of course we did. But the fact is that we still have (what I estimated the other day, when I made my "Theme Poll") close to 50 reasonably active members. The list I posted up on "Getting Back Up", which details the regular members we've lost contact with, is not that long now, and it's worth noting that some of those members weren't very active as it is. When we count in the members that have become a bigger, more active part of the community since the old forum went down, I think this effect is a little (not entirely) overstated.

I grant the point about not getting new members playing a role in the decline. The staff had identified this as a problem even on the old forum, and moving from the Official Redwall Abbey Page That Is Linked To In Every Book to a backwater personal website that no Redwall fan had ever heard of before December 2015 is obviously a step down. (Incidentally, I do want to comment that if you look specifically for a "Redwall Abbey Forum" in a Google or Bing search, we don't do as badly there. Bing even helpfully suggests that searchers also search for "Loamhedge Abbey Forum", which, given our site's name, has got to help our odds of getting noticed.)

The fact is, though, that for May and June, after many of these members have returned, activity should not be down by a full 50%. The fact that it was made me wonder if something else was going on. The few days since we've shut down the shoutbox is too small a sample size to definitively tell anything by, but even so I think it's interesting that since that time we've averaged something like half again as many posts per day as we did before. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the shoutbox had something to do with the decline, especially when we know that if people are having conversations about something on the box, they're probably not making new threads about the same subject.

... because THAT is when the forum would ACTUALLY start looking like other forms of social media.

As far as what is or isn't like Facebook, I think the front page of Facebook is recognizably identifiable with the shoutbox -- a "bottomless page" consisting of text dumps from people's stream of consciousness onto the page, with little organization and very little ability to conveniently access old information. Of course, it's more cluttered, but I'd argue that's just because everybody on Facebook has 100+ "friends" using it 24/7. If we set up a RAF Facebook group with 50 people in it, and they used it the same way as they used the shoutbox, I honestly don't expect things would be very much different than how it was here.

I've personally yet to see any major explosions on the shoutbox, and I know what an explosion looks like better than almost anyone.

I'll own you the ability to identify explosions based on your previous record, but I do have experience with the shoutbox myself. Since 2014, I've spent more time on the forum than anyone else has, and after it was installed, I used the shoutbox more than anyone else did. Whenever I came on (after a night's sleep, or few hours' absence from the house), I would go back through the history and extended history to see everything that happened on the box while I was away. I've even gone back through months-old logs to dig out bits of history. I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude that nobody on the forum has spent more time staring at that box's output than I have.

So, I don't feel like I should have to defend myself when I say that after observing the shoutbox and its atmosphere, I saw it had major downsides. Maybe we didn't have so many explosive back-and-forth arguments (although I think that has as much to do with the changes to the community's memberbase as anything else), but I'm not just making things up when I say that more of our Staff discussions about member activity over the past few months, since the new forum was made, have been about things that happened on the shoutbox than the rest of the forum combined (if you don't believe me, ask Matthias, or Lutra, or Dan, or Leatho). We probably could have put a few more things on the roll if I (the main shoutbox monitor) hadn't felt forgiving and/or hopeful that it wouldn't be repeated.

I have been in instant chat environments. Anybody that has spent some time near a public IRC channel knows exactly what I'm talking about and what environment those places tend to trend towards, namely, that a lot of that discussion isn't fit for human consideration. This is a children's book forum. I personally consider a violation of the serious rules of the community to be a catastrophic failure event, because we must assume that whatever is posted, preteens are reading it and absorbing it. The fact is that I would rather be caught dead wearing a pink suit, shirt and trousers than to let my (or for that matter, anybody I know's) parents read some of what was posted on the shoutbox.

Of course, one might say that the issue was a lack of discipline, and that we should have banned those people from the box. Well, you know, maybe we should have. Of course, we would have heard just as many complaints as we're hearing now about the box going down, but at least that would have taken care of that. But I figure -- why do that when we can just get rid of the box, and -- *poof* -- see all of that behavior (as well as our other box-related problems) magically disappear?

Nobody who knows me and my record can seriously say that I am against adding to and changing the forum. This can't be statistically proven, but I don't think I'd be too far off by saying that we've changed and added more things since I've returned in '14 than since at any other time after the forum's founding and formative months in 2011. A lot of those changes were even my ideas. Trust me when I say it is not just about what I feel is "necessary" or "unnecessary". I'm passionate about this forum and want to make things as good as possible, and very frequently I've suggested adding things to bring that about.

It just so happens that after observing how people have used the box over the past few months, I'm having a hard time seeing a brighter, better future that has a shoutbox in it.

[Delthion]

I greatly prefer the forum without the shoutbox and don't see a need for an alternative. Things have gotten back to the way they were in the Golden Age!

[Dannflower Reguba]

It's not a matter of debate that the shoutbox had become extremely popular

And it was popular for a reason, reason being that people liked and used it. I've yet to see this fact even be considered, there's clearly a desire for a chat system from a large block of the community. If I had anything important to say with lasting meaning, I'd put it in a place where it would last, this is basic logic. Thing is, a lot of us are here to hang out with each other, I know I've stayed for the relationships and Role-Plays. The shoutbox let you share the current, little things, without confusing someone that comes along 2 weeks later that tries to respond.

Comments on the speed of one method versus another

Fact of the matter is that you simply can't compete with a live-updating system seeing as that's as fast as it gets. I know I personally have no complaints with the layout, it's understandable, and allows decently quick navigation for pages of text. Is that to say improvements can't be made? Of course not! And if someone gets a good idea, then change things, I'm totally for trying to make the forum better.

I feel that knowledge is cumulative, building on itself.

This is certainly true, but going back on what I said earlier: "If I had anything important to say with lasting meaning, I'd put it in a place where it would last, this is basic logic." I feel it applies here as well, the posts we do make will carry our personality whether we like it or not. A relationship with history will always be better, but if misconceptions are easy to make when all you have to go on are old blocks of text. On the "two people," example: that's the problem. It may be that things they said at that point had relevance, but what if they don't? I know there I things from my past that I'm glad are off the pages.

Of course we did. But the fact is that we still have

Even so, the disparity shouldn't be entirely blamed on one thing, and from what I've seen of this topic (and everyone who's against the box), I can't get past the fact that every problem we may be having is subsequently placing the blame on one change, and this seems a bit drastic, all things considered. Admittedly, the Loamhedge Abbey key word helps, but as previously stated, it's just not going to do nearly as much for us.

As far as what is or isn't like Facebook

I have to disagree. While it is easily cluttered, and previous information can be tricky to ascertain, the fact remains that it is compact (assuming people are respectfully using spoiler tags for images, I can admit that non-spoiler images in the box are obnoxious), and doesn't demand nearly as much time or effort as a Facebook scroll.

I'll own you the ability to identify explosions based on your previous record

^ I'm almost insulted   

I'd be interested in examples, though I can understand confidentiality and things of the like. I'm not (nor will I ever) argue that the box exhibits issues, and I can certainly agree that guidelines, rules, changes, active moderation, etc. would be healthy. My point in all of this is that destruction of the chat feature is too drastic. I can know and appreciate all of your points (which I do), but that simply can't change the fact that my experience with it has been for the better. I've had a sum total of MAYBE 6 really good friends on the forum. Now that the shoutbox came in, I've felt far more connected with people that I formerly never spoke with, some of whom I didn't even know were previous members! Also, what do you plan on doing for those of us who actually did like and use the shoutbox for it's merits? You can take things down and pretend the problem is gone, but we're going to remember. I'm not saying I condone resentment, but you're taking away something of value from a sizable portion of your community.

The shoutbox has its' faults, I have no plan to ever argue against that point as everything (especially online) has issues that will inevitably come up. But the shoutbox has its' advantages as well, and I don't see those being appreciated or, "entertained," (as in entertaining an idea) as much as the downsides, and this makes everything feel biased to me. When a person is in a leadership position, and I've got any reason to think they're acting out of their own interests without as much consideration of those under them, I worry. And I hate to think it, no disrespect meant, but I can't help but think that very thing sometimes.

As far as ideas for modifications go, you could put an age-restriction on the box (so those who don't enter their birthdate can't access it) Yes, they can lie about their age, but it does put up one more safety barrier. Shoutbox bans, posts per minute limits, moderator access to edit shoutbox messages (especially for those non-spoiler images -_-), etc. could all be things considered to protect kids, encourage activity elsewhere, etc.

I greatly prefer the forum without the shoutbox and don't see a need for an alternative. Things have gotten back to the way they were in the Golden Age!

We shouldn't sacrifice the future to re-create the past. The old forum worked back then, but change is necessary for any good thing. Trying to fit everyone into the same mold simply does not work, and will not make for a new golden age. The golden age is also perspective based, for me, it was when RP's were active, and completed... it's been years since I've seen a golden age.

[The Skarzs]

Giving a peoples everything they want doesn't make it better, that's what I'll say.



Dan, you mentioned something about it being useful for letting people know immediately of posts you want them to see (maybe I read it wrong). An alternative to that is using the @ plug in that allows you to mention people in post, and they get a notification in the Mentions part at the top of the page.

[Gonff the Mousethief]

I greatly prefer the forum without the shoutbox and don't see a need for an alternative. Things have gotten back to the way they were in the Golden Age!

I clearly remember their being two Golden Ages. One when James was first active in 2011-ish when there was that small close knit community who started the forum, and when I first joined and RPs like the Hidden Within the Walls and that Winter one was going on. Also with that, it's when we all had fun doing things in each board, having the DDBs in the Cellars, those fun Forum Games which always got a good laugh, and when everybody felt like a family. I've elaborated on this before, but soon after that, let's say mid to late 2014, it seemed that Age ended. Everybody had an Ask thread, fanfics and RPs were dying, the cellars was just a bunch of literal spam, and the community was slowly drifting away. It got so bad that I didn't post for a good two months, simply because it felt a waste of my time to be here. In 2015 though, I decided to come back and saw many people trying to fix this problem of why all of these things were beginning to happen. Of course, this kept going for the rest of the year, with a few success here and there. Finally, before the forum shut down, it seemed we were on our way to maybe another Golden Age like the last two. But disaster struck, and here we are now. Somewhere where we now have all conjoined once again, having to start from scratch. Those who remembers those types of days brought back real forum staples and topics that we all enjoyed. RPs got a little boost, and the Cellars even looked bright. Then the whole fiasco with the start and now end of the shoutbox happened, with mixed results. Now, I'm not here to start something, but the Shoutbox seemed to have shown us what could happen with these changes. They can of course always be good, but some can be bad. You can decide what what you felt the Shoutbox as, but now, as Del said, things seem to be turning back into a Golden Age. Hopefully, it can really be a good one.

[Hickory]

In terms of the "Golden Age" (that I witnessed the downfall of, right when I joined), any reasonable member would assume that the process of recovering from the destruction of the old forum would bring us closer together than ever. However, it has culminated in us being more like social media friends than actual friends. Which, technically we are, but it's my opinion that we're more than just forum friends.

Many people put down this lack of activity to less members and even smaller numbers of incoming members. I disagree. As shown in above posts it's not the number of members, it's the members themselves. For example, I take little to no regret in crediting Ashleg, Sandpaw, Groddil, Skarz, and yours truly for keeping the RP board alive. Writers like Gonff and Leonardo and artists like Leatho and Ashleg fill the Fan Works board with content. Needless to say we have exhausted the topics of Redwall itself and have retreated into overly-thought out posts and discreet polls with a low post rate, leaving the General and Character discussion boards drab and boring. While boards like the Front Lawns/Orchard, Cellars, and Forum Games are a content-consuming black hole, so was the shout box.

The shout box brought the Cellars, Front Lawns, Cavern Hole, and the RP boards into a massive conglomerate of material that essentially recycled discarded posts into a common area of talk. Common areas are meant for many things, you might say. Indeed they are, but the shout box (unintentionally) catered to a specific: spam. As many social media aficionados know well, chat boxes full of different people is best used by those who can type faster than normal. It's a competition of who-can-respond-faster, resulting in a mass of text that is incredibly hard to understand even if you were directly involved.

Thank you and good night!

[Jetthebinturong]

Also the shoutbox was full of people having different conversations at the same time and interrupting each other, which, to me, demonstrates a lack of basic courtesy.

[Cornflower MM]

Angry, typical post of mine is being edited out. Because of course everyone gets on my case for speaking my feelings. It's getting old, guys, find someone else to pick on.

[Jukka the Sling]

I wasn't paying much attention to this thread, but on the whole I thought everyone was conducting themselves rather well.  No one was getting really mad or anything.  I think.

[Cornflower MM]

Squabbling and arguing is squabbling and arguing, shouting or no. Plus that was my general output on all the shoutbox feedback.