Shoutbox topic

[Banya]

Hi Ash! I hope you're well!

[Lady Ashenwyte]

Thanks! I'm going good. How're you?

[Cornflower MM]

I'm glad to hear that you're gaining a taste for the avatars. Although everybody else seemed to like it, I wasn't keen on going into something like this with your disapproval.

@James Gryphon: This is bothering me. Why do you put so much stock in one person's opinion, when they're not even staff? If they were staff I could see it, but it seems really unprofessional (to me) to put so much in to one non-staff person's opinion? Even, or I could say especially when they're in the very small minority? I mean, most of the time we aren't asking for the changes, so we could at least like them, y'know? I get that Banny's a very close friend and all, but this is kinda blowing my mind. It doesn't seem right to me.
Not tryna start anything or anything, I really want to know.

[Hickory]

^I thought that as well.

[Wylder Treejumper]

I can see both sides. Banya is a good friend and a senior and respected member of the forum. It makes sense that James would pay attention to her opinion over someone like, say, Delthion, who's likely to advocate for avatars at 2000x2000.

On the other hand, however, this is really a cosmetic change, not a functional one, so a super-majority should take the cake, regardless of the opinions of any one or few non-staff members, because it is really about what people like and won't affect how things work.

Regardless, I wouldn't consider it an issue, because he ruled with the majority anyways.

[Lady Ashenwyte]

I agree with Wylder.

[The Skarzs]

Mm.

[James Gryphon]

I'd like to see what the lines look like in different colours. That's an interesting idea.
...
It's become your hobby to look for improvements you can bring to the forum and to work on your experimental theme. I wager you're going to keep experimenting with the theme anyway.

Well, not "colors", so much as different shades of onyx and ash. But yeah, I'm fiddling with things. In the Experimental theme, I'm making hopefully subtle changes to the lines, generally making them darker.

Oh, here's something. Maybe someone else brought it up and I completely missed it. When I try to click the white page icon next to the re: topic title on each member's post, the icon that makes it so that a link will direct to that post instead of the top of the page, it doesn't work. Is that just me?

I think you just click on the link itself to do that, and that it's always worked that way, but I could be wrong.

This is bothering me. Why do you put so much stock in one person's opinion, when they're not even staff?

Because I trust and respect her judgment.

Part of being "professional", as it was put, is knowing who to listen to. If you treat every customer's feedback equally, regardless of their qualifications or record, I don't feel you're on the pathway to success. When it comes to doing business, most customers are average people and earn your usual attention, but some, for good or bad, are exceptional. When you get somebody like that, it's important to treat them appropriately. If a person is malicious or deliberately ignorant (in a word: toxic) it's worth losing a sale to get those people out of your pipeline, because they'll cost you more than they're worth to you in the long run. Contrariwise, if they're especially affable and/or have a great mind for some aspect of your business, you want to do everything you can to hold on to them; they're worth more than just money, they save your time. I don't feel there are any toxic people on the forum, but if there is somebody who I feel is mature, level-headed, has good sense, and is also readily available and easy for me to get along with, I am inclined to take advantage of that when I can. I think it's obvious that Banya and Sky (two of the non-staff members I like to touch base with) demonstrate these qualities, so it doesn't make sense for me not to look out for their thoughts and feelings when I'm thinking about significant changes.

I mean, most of the time we aren't asking for the changes, so we could at least like them, y'know?

If going by what I announced in "Tweaks and Changes" is any indication, most of the time, the changes haven't generally been things that somebody could readily disagree with, and when they were, they were either discontinued not long afterwards (having failed their trial period), or I offered alternative options to people so that they could keep using the forum as they did before. It's no great secret that I've had my share of half-baked ideas and botched implementations of things, but I don't think I have a history of forcing everybody to go along with them indefinitely.

@Wylder: I have to admit I disagree with the point about cosmetic and functional changes being distinct in the forum's operation. As Apple has proved very well over the last quarter-century , look and feel is a key element of how a product is received by the public. There are definitely times when I feel it's appropriate to consider the vast majority's tastes, like when I held the poll to decide whether the Experimental theme should become the new default, but an issue like avatar size, that affects the entire forum regardless of user preferences, is something that we want to be able to look at from all sides and consider carefully, without feeling bound to make certain decisions.

[Hickory]

It's great that you trust two members like that (not to say I don't) but just because they have good qualities doesn't mean they don't have bad ones. Banya and Sky aren't exactly active on the forum everyday, so they aren't getting a real sense of what it's like to be with the changes all the time. For example, a member who is on once a day would have a good sense of whether or not they liked the upsized bars, because they stare at it everyday. Other members wouldn't, because it's not a regular appearance. Another problem with this smol small opinion taking is that changing things naturally produces bugs (as we've seen in several cases). Personally, I think that it's not worth the backlash to change something based on one person's opinion, however small that change is. Lastly, with or without Banyer's opinion, you've been a little rash when making changes (i.e. - changing the host or whatever it was). But then again, there was a poll for that, so what can I say?

[Banya]

I guess I'll add that when James makes changes for the entire forum, he's either asking the entire forum beforehand (like with the themes or .xyz) or trying something new with just his or the staff's opinions (like the avatar sizes and interface colours). He didn't ask me about the avatar size because he wanted to know if I wanted the size changed larger or smaller; he wanted to know if I liked the change in the hope that I would and was disappointed when I expressed a dissenting opinion. He hasn't once mentioned the possibility of changing the sizes back because of one lone opinion. When he wants to know in what directions the members want to see the forum go, he asks everyone, and when he wants feedback on the changes he makes, he listens to and weighs every opinion. You're directing this conversation on the assumption that James is listening to only one opinion and making changes based on it when that isn't what happened.

[Kitsune]

I used to be in James' "consultant" group for a little bit. Heh. Guess I got too weird.

[Cornflower MM]

You're directing this conversation on the assumption that James is listening to only one opinion and making changes based on it when that isn't what happened.

Hey! That's not my intent at all! I'm saying it seems that he puts an awful lot of weight on one person's opinion, that's all. It makes more sense now.

[Tester]

@James Gryphon

[Wylder Treejumper]

@Wylder: I have to admit I disagree with the point about cosmetic and functional changes being distinct in the forum's operation. As Apple has proved very well over the last quarter-century , look and feel is a key element of how a product is received by the public. There are definitely times when I feel it's appropriate to consider the vast majority's tastes, like when I held the poll to decide whether the Experimental theme should become the new default, but an issue like avatar size, that affects the entire forum regardless of user preferences, is something that we want to be able to look at from all sides and consider carefully, without feeling bound to make certain decisions.

@James Gryphon: With due respect, functionality is highly distinct from cosmetics. Changing the size of avatars- at least, so far as I can tell on my PC- does not materially affect the methods of posting or reading materials, introduce new operations or modify existing ones. It is almost purely a matter of taste; the only material factor I can think of is use of server memory. Functionality, on the other hand, makes a substantial difference in the operation of the forum, like the shoutbox- pleasing to many members, but at the same time damaging to other aspects of the forum. These can be weighed logically with a list of pro-cons. Aesthetics cannot be though of as logical tradeoffs, and so majorities should carry the decision, simply because there is no truly objective way of looking at it.

In any case, you make my point for me: "look and feel is a key element of how a product is received by the public"- public being the forum at large, and not members in specific.

(As a note, I'm not criticising your decision- just discoursing on proper methods of decisionmaking. I agree with you in general)
(Same thing for you, Banya- I have great respect for you, just debating principle here. I never could resist a good debate. Someday it'll get me in trouble )

[Banya]

(Same thing for you, Banya- I have great respect for you, just debating principle here. I never could resist a good debate. Someday it'll get me in trouble )

I know you can't. So be it if it gets you in trouble to debate things you find questionable. Thank you, Wylder.

You're directing this conversation on the assumption that James is listening to only one opinion and making changes based on it when that isn't what happened.

Hey! That's not my intent at all! I'm saying it seems that he puts an awful lot of weight on one person's opinion, that's all. It makes more sense now.

Your argument made sense to me. I just wanted to put my input in because my name came up and due to the direction the conversation was taking.