POLL: If These Badgers were in a fight, who would win

[Hickory]

You wrote more than James.

[alexandre]

I'll go to the end on this forum saying that's not the way the poll should have gone down,

Sorry, all the regular voters had already put forth their votes, so their was no telling how long it would be till someone else came along and I was getting frustrated with the lack of discussion in General and Character Discussion, which are my two favorite boards, although, I agree it was hardly a decisive majority.  .

Full plate armor of later Medieval times was pretty much invulnerable to arrows; it was like the Abrams tank of that age.
However, lesser armor is not so indestructible. In earlier times, good metal was hard to get, and even then, it was often of varying carbon content throughout a single piece. (Carbon is what makes steel strong.) So it could be relatively tough in one area, but in another be soft iron. Often it was of varying thickness as well, since they had no way of making uniform sheets of metal back then.
Assuming the armor is of badger make, and thus top quality from the examples in the books, then it should be able to stop an arrow from penetrating all the way through. However, it's not reasonable to think that it's full plate armor she would be wearing. Why? Because the armor that covered every part of the body and would stop arrows from all angles was meant to be worn on horseback. The most they could do off the horse was walk. And since no badger in the books ever rode some animal into battle, they would dress in armor that would allow for more speed and movement, meaning there would be considerable gaps in the armor at the joints. Even if those areas were protected by chain mail, arrows would find their mark if the bowman was a good shot.
There's a lot that goes unsaid in the books about wounds. It doesn't matter how determined you are or how little you feel the pain, if something has cut a tendon, then there is no moving that part. If Lonna was using a broadhead arrow, which is meant to slice its way through all types of tissue, this would be a serious problem for Cregga. Bodkin arrows would cause wounds that would be hard to heal because of the shape of it, but aren't as likely to sever tendons or nerves.
So, if Cregga was dressed in armor that didn't constrict her speed, Lonna may be able to take her down just by immobilizing her by shooting through the gaps in her armor.

That is, however, provided that Cregga was quite a ways away.

It's taught in self defense that the average person running to attack you can cover twenty feet in around 1.5 seconds. If the two confronted in close proximity, Lonna, great bowbeast that he is, would not be able to sling off a clean shot before Cregga would be upon him. If it were twice that distance, about forty feet, Lonna would have a better chance to shoot her, but would probably still not be able to immobilize her if she was wearing armor, since I think it would take at least three good arrows to do so. At sixty feet he might get two arrows in, and at one hundred he will have a pretty good chance. (This is all assuming Cregga has armor on.)
If she doesn't have armor, the chances of Lonna killing her is much more likely. Two well-placed arrows would probably be enough to take Cregga down, let's say one through the neck and another near the heart. (Or maybe straight through the eye. That'd do it.)


It's hard for this fight because it really depends on the distance the two begin fighting at. In other matches it's fairly easy to assume the setting of the fights because they're pretty close quarters. In this, however, we're talking about two entirely different distances. In close range, Cregga would win with or without armor, paws down. At longer range, Lonna would definitely kill Cregga without armor, but would likely only be able to immobilize her with armor, and then he can go in for the kill.





Have I ever mentioned that I like this topic?

     Wow, you and James always have useful input on the polls, also I would like to remind y'all that in the hypothetical battles, we assume the badgers are in their prime with their armor and weapon of choice in the book, we should also have a chosen battlefield for all the fights, for this one, given the abnormal weapon choice, I think the battle should take place in Mossflower woods, to base it solely on skill, without the obvious advantage of a bow out in the open.

[The Skarzs]

In the most even setting, I think it could go either way, but I don't remember much about Lonna's skill, so my inclination is more towards Cregga in that situation.

[Grond]

From the story we read, he couldn't beat Rakkety Tam, a squirrel. There's no way that, given that record, he would have outfought a badger lord.

Gulo lost to Rakkety Tam out of really bad luck and to a lesser extent because of the supernatural help Tam received from Martin. Prior to Gulo jumping onto Tam in the ditch and getting thrown/pushed by Tam's legs onto the sharpened edge of the shield and subsequently beheaded by it he had basically won the fight. Tam was extremely lucky in this scenario. First of all, he managed to throw/push Gulo exactly where the shield had landed. Further to this point the shield landed in the ditch quite close to where Tam did. Secondly when Gulo flung the shield out of Tam's hands it got stuck in the ground so that the sharpened edge was pointing upwards. It did not, for example, fall flat on the ground which would have rendered the sharpened edges useless.

Prior to this Tam was not able to inflict any life threatening injuries on Gulo. He managed to cut off one of the wolverine's claws and also to pierce his foot paw with Martin's sword. Yet Gulo managed to rip Tam's leg and I believe arm open. And he also managed to force him into the ditch- with Tam being helpless to do anything. Furthermore, after throwing Gulo, Tam passed out for an unspecified amount of time. But it was clearly longer than a few seconds or minutes since he woke up with his leg in a spline. This would have taken even an expert healer longer than a few seconds or minutes to do. It is probably safe to assume that the blood loss resulting from the injury to his leg was the cause of this. Given this I think it is safe to assume that Tam's injuries were life threatening and that he could have very well died if he had not gotten immediate medical care from the highly skilled Abbey healers.

He also sharpened his shield jus because Martin's spirit told him to do so. Because he/it "knew" Gulo would get thrown onto the shield. Otherwise I have never heard of a shield with sharpened edges either in real life/history or in the Redwall series. I imagine a shield with such edges would be more of a liability, or at the very least not particularly useful, than an asset. 

I would argue that if the fight between Gulo and Tam was run say a 1000 times, like they did in the show deadliest warrior, Gulo would probably win significantly more times than Tam. Since a lucky blow isn't going to make much difference over so many fights/simulations. And its unlikely that a repeat of the above scenario which killed Gulo would happen often. He dominated the fight prior to this.

Finally, if Gulo had a weapon that capitalized on brute strength, like say Cregga's halberd, Sunflash's mace or even a large badge sword- Tam's odds would get much worse. Such a weapon would have been much more dangerous in his hands than the squirrel sized claymore than he used.
Now why I say this in regards to Badger Lords is that even a badger lord could get killed by Tam, a squirrel, from a "single lucky blow". Even the most skilled warrior can lose to an inexperienced one, however it isn't very likely- the odds are obviously on the side of the more skilled combatant but its no guarantee of victory. Hence who wins a fight more times and not every time would be the winner. Which in this case would be a Badger Lord.

I agree though that a berserk badger lord like say Cregga, who never demonstrated much skill with their weapon would lose to a highly skilled one like Boar who had learned to be more level headed and composed during battle. Simply because they would not be able to overwhelm with brute strength like Gulo could Tam. Or like Cregga could other lesser/weaker foes. Neither of them fought a foe that was close to their level of strength. This is also why I think Gulo could fair fairly well against Badger Lords that fought more with brute strength than skill. Assuming Gulo also had a weapon suited to this as well. There is also no indication that Cregga, a female badger, would be stronger than a male badger like Boar. Assuming both are in their prime. So I also like you do not see any advantage that Cregga would have over Boar.

[The Skarzs]

Very good post on the subject, Grond!

[Wylder Treejumper]

I agree with your post in general, Grond. Gulo is one of- indeed, I think it no stretch of the imagination to say he was definitively- the most dangerous villain in all the Redwall series. His strength was unparalleled, and while he was not intelligent, he was very cunning (even in insanity). Furthermore, he was terrifically vicious and bloodthirsty by nature, and so was not afflicted by the bloodwrath which badger Lords almost inevitably carry. In fact, I can think of no warrior hero in the series who could reasonably best him a majority of the time- including badger Lords/Ladies and the legendary Martin the Warrior. Simply, as a wolverine his combat capabilities quite exceed those of other species. So let us not judge Tam too harshly- it should be remembered that he was a highly skilled and seasoned warrior, no Triss. He is shown dispatching competent vermin and even his withstanding and minor harming of Gulo is highly impressive, seeing as even seasoned Long Patrol warriors succumbed to Gulo's fury without harming him.

In a supposed "fair fight", my money would be on Gulo over any other beast, including badgers. Gulo has been around for long enough to know a proper enemy when he sees one (he has fought other wolverines), and while his intelligence may be low, his combat cunning is high. He would prepare, fight dirty, overbear, and use any and every advantage that he could. Not having bloodwrath, he would be more perceptive than an enemy with it, yet any enemy without it would be hopelessly outmatched by his strength. Armor in this case ought to be discounted. Allowing Gulo any weapon of choice to counter a badger weapon would simply add more in his favor. Even the size advantage would be his, as he is described as larger than a badger. Strategy would be the only real way to defeat him, but these sorts of battles do not really allow for the implementation of large or intricate strategies, enough to totally outclass Gulo's thinking.

[Captain Tammo]

Cregga all the way!

[Ashleg]

Cregga! CREGGA!

[The Skarzs]

Is that just because you like Cregga better?

[Ashleg]

Plus, I mean, she survived through more books and any other character I can recall.
She wouldn't have died from paw-to-paw combat if it wasn't for that arrow.

[Grond]

Plus, I mean, she survived through more books and any other character I can recall.
She wouldn't have died from paw-to-paw combat if it wasn't for that arrow.

Bella's lifespan was similar to Cregga's, she appears in 3 books and never any serious injuries. Yet I don't see anyone claiming that Bella was the greatest badger warrior due to her longevity.

Cregga never demonstrated any particularly impressive feat for a badger lord. While she wielded a pike that took 4 non-badger beasts to lift- it is unclear even maybe unlikely that this is an impressive feat of strength for other badgers. In the book Long Patrol- Tammo witnesses beasts flying in the air as Cregga was charging through the Rapscallion army to get to Damung. However, all of the beasts in the Rapscallion army where significantly smaller and weaker than her. And it is a feat that other badgers could accomplish. Muta- a completely untrained female badger killed around a score of the Foxwolf's horde and I believe he mentions that some of the rats were flying through the air...

There is also the matter that Cregga threw away her weapon and grabbed Damung with her bare hands in the middle of a battle. She subsequently jumped off the ridge with him. He inflicted serious injuries to her face as a result. Having gouged or slashed both her eyes out- rendering her blind for life. She was rather fortunate to survive such injuries. Now Damung was not a particularly formidable opponent. Even though he was a great rat, and larger than a normal rat, he was still physically smaller than Lugworm. Who by all descriptions was a fairly average stoat. Furthermore, Damung also never demonstrated any great skill with his sword. Such a reckless act would have likely proven fatal against a significantly stronger opponent.

Shifting gears, Raga Bol's crew killed Lonna's older companion and nearly killed Lonna himself. If not for the otters he would have died to. Raga Bol's crew after the fight with Lonna numbered, from what I recall, around 50 or so searats. I do not remember if it is mentioned how many of them died fighting in the cave against Lonna. But this example demonstrates the short comings of Lonna's primary weapon- a bow in such a small and confined area as a cave. It is obviously much more effective at greater distances and combat in the open.

Now for comparison, Rawnblade on his own managed to kill the entire crew of the Waveblade. Which was a 100 searats strong. He only suffered minor injuries in the process. Boar succumbed while fighting with Ripfang's crew- although how many searats Ripfang had under his command is unclear. But Rawnblade's killing of the Waveblade's entire crew is, from what I can recall, the largest number of foe beasts killed by a single combatant over the course of a single battle. Badger or otherwise. Rawnblade also gauged solid rock walls with his claws in his forge room when the Bloodwrath came upon him. Indicating his Bloodwrath would have probably been as bad as Cregga's. He also demonstrated the ability to somewhat control it prior to attacking the crew of the Waveblade. But he had no control over it during his fight with Gabool- nearly dying twice as a result.

Gabool first managed to stick a dagger in Rawnblade's chest or breastplate. This would have been a fatal or at the very least a serious injury had Rawnblade not been wearing his breastplate or had the weapon been longer and of a better quality of steel. He also got lured into the scorpion's pit by Gabool and was nearly killed by it as well. Only the intervention of the spirit of Martin the Warrior saved him.

[alexandre]

You wrote more than James.

lol, Your profile pic goes perfectly with that


Should I call it a bowstripe win or leave it longer?

[The Skarzs]

Well, according to the poll, yeah. Besides, Cregga's been in one before.

[alexandre]

New Poll

[The Skarzs]

Mm. Well, it's kind of the same as with against Cregga, a close-range weapon versus long range. Except that with Orlando, he doesn't have a very noteworthy case of the Bloodwrath, which he was only described to have during the fight in the underground kingdom. The fight would be very similar to the previous one, though with the potential for Orlando to be a little more intelligent than Cregga with her ever-present Bloodwrath.

So because of that, I honestly want to vote for Orlando because I like his story more than Lonna's.