Tagg and Veil: Nature v. Nurture in the Redwall Series

[Wylder Treejumper]

Continued from the "Something to consider that I hope seemed odd to more than just me" topic.

[Dannflower Reguba]

       Here's a little background for the conversation.

It should be kept in mind, however, that these characters are not human; the effect being they are far more susceptible to the influence of nature than that of nurture. In addition, there are certainly instances where people from horrible circumstances rise far above them, and where people of high standing have fallen into a moral abyss. These are two exceptional characters, so it is not fair, perhaps, to judge them by "averages"- especially as I would say they are more typical than not of the Redwall universe.

Veil's morality makes no logical sense, and nor does Tagg's. The ideas of nature vs nurture are whacked in the Redwall series. Even if Veil was naturally "evil" and Tagg was naturally "good," their upbringings should trump those natures.

I agree. In real life, that's more often than nought the case. However, it seems it was necessary to keep those lines between good and bad in the books pretty clear-cut.

I don't feel like it was necessary, the books would have been far more interesting had Tagg been an antagonist and Veil been a protagonist. The Taggerung is probably my second least favourite Redwall book for its treatment of Tagg.

Indeed, if a black and white world was what Brian was going for than if he had made Tagg a villain it would've at least shown that bad things do happen and that sometimes even people you do thing you can trust have a chance of not being as nice as they seem.

Veil's morality makes no logical sense, and nor does Tagg's. The ideas of nature vs nurture are whacked in the Redwall series. Even if Veil was naturally "evil" and Tagg was naturally "good," their upbringings should trump those natures.

I agree. In real life, that's more often than nought the case. However, it seems it was necessary to keep those lines between good and bad in the books pretty clear-cut.

I don't feel like it was necessary, the books would have been far more interesting had Tagg been an antagonist and Veil been a protagonist. The Taggerung is probably my second least favourite Redwall book for its treatment of Tagg.

I meant necessary to the author. But yeah.

It should be kept in mind, however, that these characters are not human; the effect being they are far more susceptible to the influence of nature than that of nurture. In addition, there are certainly instances where people from horrible circumstances rise far above them, and where people of high standing have fallen into a moral abyss. These are two exceptional characters, so it is not fair, perhaps, to judge them by "averages"- especially as I would say they are more typical than not of the Redwall universe.

Nothing was hinted to in the books that anyone felt "the call of nature", so the influence of nature, from what we know, is minimal. Of course it's said that it's "in vermin's nature" to be the way they are, but honestly, that's a bit of a lame excuse.

It should be kept in mind, however, that these characters are not human; the effect being they are far more susceptible to the influence of nature than that of nurture. In addition, there are certainly instances where people from horrible circumstances rise far above them, and where people of high standing have fallen into a moral abyss. These are two exceptional characters, so it is not fair, perhaps, to judge them by "averages"- especially as I would say they are more typical than not of the Redwall universe.

Nothing was hinted to in the books that anyone felt "the call of nature", so the influence of nature, from what we know, is minimal. Of course it's said that it's "in vermin's nature" to be the way they are, but honestly, that's a bit of a lame excuse.

And yet, the truth? "Instinct" may not be explicitly pointed out in the book, but as a rule vermin are always evil, and woodlanders are always good. The few outliers can be considered aberrations, they are statistically insignificant in any case. Yet, Taggerung itself makes a pretty good case for the idea that, in Redwall, nature trumps nurture. Aside from that, there are few reasonable explanations for the plotline of the book. In Tagg's case especially, Brian seems to be following  the regular course of the books, though I feel it would have been better and more reasonable if Veil had come out on the order of Blaggut, Grubbage, Romsca, or perhaps that scoundrel Yoofus Lightpaw. Something on the order of Orkwil Prink's exile and journey would have been appropriate, I think.

[Hickory]

I'd like to expand on Whylder's point that wild animals are like that. Foxes, otters, ferrets, etc. all are made to be ready to hunt or at least fight by a few months. They're not meant to cling to their mothers like human babies, it's more of an independent instinct. Veil bit Skipper when he picked him up, that seems a bit too much to be voluntary, eh? It's worth noting that (with the exception of Blaggut) the other "good" vermin are "shocked" into what they did. Romsca particularly didn't really act good. She took care of an injured beast, which, in all honesty, was probably just meant as something for her "friends" at Sampetra.

As for Sawney and Deyna, if you look closely he was just acting normally (Sawney that is). As you can see with Gruven's mother (whatever her name) they both raised their sons for their own gain. They both turned on Tagg and Gruven in the end...

That's all I have to say for now.

[Wylder Treejumper]

Indeed, generally the best thing that can be said about vermin is not that they were good, but that they were harmless. I think often that we overemphasize the good qualities of Romsca especially. I feel it was clear she was mostly doing it out of orders to preserve Abbot Dural as a prisoner. At the same time, we got some sense of dignity and conscience beneath her rough exterior, and of all the vermin she was the most relatable and had, I think, one of the more touching ends of the series. Mainly, it is this type of character and focus I would have liked to see the more of.

[Hickory]

She had very basic humanity (not giving him to Ublaz like she was ordered) but in the end it wasn't for him.

[Ashleg]

Romsca reminded me a whole lot of Yellowfang from the Warriors series, if anyone's read that.

[Hickory]

^Read it a while ago, don't remember a yellow fang. (Unless that's a sequel series? I stopped reading them after the second series)

[Ashleg]

She showed up in the first book to attack the main character (Firepaw) and ThunderClan took her in.
And then became a medicine cat...?

[LT Sandpaw]

Whenever Romsca died she told Dural to tell her comrades back on Samperta he was under her protection per say. She said that they would more or less take care of him. I dunno if this is just her being too trusting of her old friends, or whether this was an actual code of conduct between pirates.

It really is to bad we never got to see if her friends would follow up on Romsca's promises.

[Maudie]

The attainment of a moral code has little rhyme or reason in Redwall. I mean...

Veil - raised good, ended up bad with a bright streak.
Blaggut - originally bad if somewhat weak, ended up relatively good.
Deyna - raised bad, ended up completely good.

[Grond]

She had very basic humanity (not giving him to Ublaz like she was ordered) but in the end it wasn't for him.

There was also a lot of tension between her and the lizard general-Lask as well as between the lizards and pirates before they even captured Durral. That likely played a big role too.

[Tiria Wildlough]

This was always a really interesting topic to me. The black-and-white good vs evil thing used to really bug me when I first read Redwall, because I thought that it should be more gray like in real life. But I've since come to understand that Redwall isn't realistic in that way, and that's okay.

[clunylooney]

^Read it a while ago, don't remember a yellow fang. (Unless that's a sequel series? I stopped reading them after the second series)

It's not a series! It's a character from the original series!

[Grond]

I would add some other characters to this discussion too:

Blaggut from the Bellmaker
Dingeye and Thura from Salamandastron
Grubbage from Triss
Crumdun from Rogue Crew

These where all vermin who were captured or had ended up in the company of woodlanders for an extended period of time. All of them where relatively amicable and did not really seem to be intent on deliberately causing problems. Even the woodlanders described some of them as likable. Which tells me there is a huge disparity or variation in how evil or not individual vermin are.

[Sebias of Redwall]

I think that there are quite a few vermin who strike me as more dumb than evil. Or perhaps dumb isn't the right word. I think someone mentioned harmless? That would describe it pretty well, I think.

I loved Blaggut!
Yeah... Hmm... I guess they were kinda grey, but I'd say mostly bad. It wasn't like they had deserted because of any moral reason, I don't think.
I don't remember the other two very well.