2016 Presidential Elections

[LT Sandpaw]

While I'm set on choosing Trump, and there is very little that could change my mind, I don't mind a healthy debate considering the Republican and Democratic choices. I must warn you though, I've done my research into Trump and Clinton, and I've made my choice not on the back of who said something worse, but on policy. While I dislike Trump with every fiber of my body, I will still vote for him, but don't expect me to defend why he said something, or agree with everything he stands for. Because I wont, and I can't.

Still he is the better choice. I'll try to clear up my statements with more information to hopefully let you see how I see the matter.

So for your points.

Corporations) I understand why you might think Corporations are bad. Everyone and everything has been depicting them as evil, shadowy tycoons who don't care about you and only care about making money. This is perfectly true. Why should any corporation's CEO care about anyone that isn't his/her family or friends? They aren't obligated too. And the whole point of a corporation is to make money, and to do so they need to create jobs, spread out wealth, and capitalize on investments, all things that help and stimulate the economy. All things that help build this country in the wealthiest in the world.

And its not like Hillary isn't helping big corps either. Her private speeches uncovered by WikiLeaks detail how she claims to have a public face, and a private face were she'll make policies giving her big donors (Corporations funding her) tax breaks and government provided loopholes, while telling the public how much she dislikes those evil corps. But that sort of thing is common for politicians, and not entirely surprising.


Border Security)  Once again I understand why you might see stricter immigration laws as bad. This year especially its been depicted as a very good thing, and it is. But we do have a path for immigration, and thousands of people enter legally every year. The big problem is that hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants are also entering by overstaying their visas or sneaking across the border. But instead of kicking them out and telling them to do it properly we provide these people with homes, health care, and other expensive things all on the taxpayers dime. And those illegal immigrants don't have to pay taxes. They're leaching off a welfare system that is bankrupting the United States.

People immigrating legally on the other hand pay taxes, and though they are recognized as full citizens, they don't automatically get all the perks that comes with sneaking in illegally.

While I think it would be perfectly fine to let all these illegals stay, it is important to make them pay taxes, and they need to be recorded. And they certainly can't live off of government welfare programs.



Sexism) Its not sexist to think Hillary is an awful person. Because she is. And what people want is an outsider, someone who isn't corrupt and bought out by interest groups. But I don't think its possible to get into the White House without a whole lot of money. Which is why Trump is so popular. He's paying his own way into the White House, which should mean he isn't hamstringed by special interest groups, and behind the counter promises. Hopefully.

He probably is... but this reason is not why I dislike Hillary. That's a turning point for some people though.

As for his lack of experience, don't let anyone think for a second that he'll be a good president. Because he wont be.


  War) Now this one is funny, because I personally think we need a no fly zone over Syria, and we need to stop the Russian advance, not befriend it. So I kinda agree with Hillary on this one. Take that any way you want.
Now I don't believe for a second Russia would dare go to war with us. For all Putin's bragging they can't support it. Their economy is down even worse than ever before, their military, though large is subpar. And even for everyone's moaning and groaning the United States is still extremely powerful, and will remain so for some time.

So if she does become president, and she does create a no fly zone over Syria, which I doubt, but if she does, that would be a good thing. Obama's line of, "They're on the wrong side of History," When Russian invaded Georgia, when they did that incursion into Ukraine, and even now as they bomb Aleppo is obviously not stopping them. Strong American force of will, will.

[Grond]

If I could I would vote for Hillary, at least she tear down all the good Obama put up however flawed she may be. I still don't understand how anyone who cares about other people could vote Trump.

Yeah, swap Trump and Hillary around there. However bad he may be, he doesn't want to establish a no-fly zone over Syria, even after already being told that that will require WAR WITH SYRIA AND RUSSIA, like Hillary does. I'd rather have a jerk in charge than have war.

I find it odd that you think Hillary would be the one to start a war, I would remind you all of what happened as far as the middle east goes last time we elected a Republican President, war.

The mental gymnastics required to try and reason that either of the candidates are morally worthy to take office would be impossible. Even Gary Johnson is a immoral hypocrite, and he's not even a libertarian.

If you want to vote moral-wise you've got to vote for Evan McMullin, who might win Utah. If he's lucky...

I'm personally going to vote Trump, I want him to get rid of Obamacare and business regulations, everyone knows Trump is going to help corporations and businesses (He's a business man after all) which is what I think is most important. He'll help secure the border, ICE and the Border Protection have endorsed him so we know they'll work with him to achieve that goal, whether he can build a wall or not, honestly I don't care about the wall, so if it never gets built I'm fine with that.

The last thing most Americans want is to emulate Sweden and Germany, so my vote unwillingly goes to Trump.

Fingers crossed.

@Groddil  Do you Watch GradeA UnderA by any chance?

I also find it odd that you think helping corporations is a good thing, how many people will have to lose their jobs and money before you will realize that the corporations don't care about you, they just want more money, your money. As for Trump being a business man, I would not call four bankruptcies anything a worthy businessman could call successful. Also, Cheney tried to run the country like a buisness, remember  what happened then?

Everyone wants border security from drugs and crime, it is just that we should be focusing on letting people enter the US legally and pave a path toward citizenship instead of feeding off of racism and trying to keep everyone out. This country was made by immigrants, so let us make them a part of our great nation, our American dream instead of insisting that they are stealing American jobs, they aren't stealing American jobs, they are equal to Americans and should be treated as such.

I find it more than a bit sexist that after everything Trump has done, people still find them equal. Trump has done and said things on more than one occasion that I am definitely not allowed to post on the forum. Trump also doesn't have any experience with the political world, he is a reality tv star, a lot of people like the fact that he is not a politician, honestly, I am perfectly fine with someone with 30 years of experience in the field being elected. The whole "we don't want a politician thing" kind of makes me think of a class of kindergartners, most of them probably would rather have a teacher with no experience that just gave them time to play all day while their brains slowly crumbled, and they would later regret not learning than have a teacher who teaches them what they need to keep learning and grow up and be successful even if the teacher could be quite mean sometimes. In the Metaphor, the second teacher is Hillary. Anyone old enough to vote should have grown out of that attitude by now.

Hilary was secretary of state and during that time she was extremely careless with highly classified US information, used a private email server when communicating this information, and also managed to get Americans part of the diplomatic corps in Libya killed by not heeding their warnings and requests for help. Not to mention, she was the one who pushed for a Libyan no fly zone and arming of the rebels- some of whom are jihadists if not outright ISIS supporters, link to an article below. Furthermore she is currently under investigation from the FBI- due to her conduct or should I say misconduct as secretary of state...

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/438605/

So I really fail to see how is she so fit to be POTUS ? What great policies or deeds did she accomplish during her time as secretary of state?

Now Trump is a pompous mouth on two legs, while he has claimed many radical things I highly doubt he tends to implement them or that he even could if he wanted to. We can't really judge his fitness to be a politician as he has never been in politics before. Clinton has held a senior position in government and it has led to a massive FBI investigation against her, hardly an impressive politician...

[alexandre]

Well, I don't hear y'all screaming about Bush's 22 million deleted emails, just sayin'.

Also, why would Trump say all those things if he doesn't wish to implement them, most people say things for a reason, I think all the horrifyingly radical things he said should be worrying people a lot more. What if Obama had done and said all the things Trump had? Would it be excused as "locker Room talk?"

While I'm set on choosing Trump, and there is very little that could change my mind, I don't mind a healthy debate considering the Republican and Democratic choices. I must warn you though, I've done my research into Trump and Clinton, and I've made my choice not on the back of who said something worse, but on policy. While I dislike Trump with every fiber of my body, I will still vote for him, but don't expect me to defend why he said something, or agree with everything he stands for. Because I wont, and I can't.

Still he is the better choice. I'll try to clear up my statements with more information to hopefully let you see how I see the matter.

So for your points.

Corporations) I understand why you might think Corporations are bad. Everyone and everything has been depicting them as evil, shadowy tycoons who don't care about you and only care about making money. This is perfectly true. Why should any corporation's CEO care about anyone that isn't his/her family or friends? They aren't obligated too.They should do good things with there money because that is what good people do, they don't because they aren't obligated too, which makes them bad people. And the whole point of a corporation is to make money, and to do so they need to create jobsOr they just take your money and leave the people that help pay to keep them up jobless, like in 2008., spread out wealthPlease expand on what you mean by "spread out.", and capitalize on investments, all things that help and stimulate the economy. All things that help build this country in the wealthiest in the world.

And its not like Hillary isn't helping big corps either. Her private speeches uncovered by WikiLeaks detail how she claims to have a public face, and a private face were she'll make policies giving her big donors (Corporations funding her) tax breaks and government provided loopholes, while telling the public how much she dislikes those evil corps. But that sort of thing is common for politicians, and not entirely surprising.
I'm gonna have to agree with you here, but I believe what small bit of bad with the speeches and all is far outweighed by all the good she has done with wealth especially as first lady.

Border Security)  Once again I understand why you might see stricter immigration laws as bad. This year especially its been depicted as a very good thing, and it is. But we do have a path for immigration, and thousands of people enter legally every year. The big problem is that hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants are also entering by overstaying their visas or sneaking across the border. But instead of kicking them out and telling them to do it properly we provide these people with homes, health care, and other expensive things all on the taxpayers dime. And those illegal immigrants don't have to pay taxes. They're leaching off a welfare system that is bankrupting the United States.This part especially bothers me, in order to enter the united states, these people have to have some prepared reason like family or employment relationships. Many of these immigrants are just trying to find a better place for themselves and their kids, free from the mess that is going on back in Mexico, and we should welcome them as fellow Americans, give them jobs so they can become legal and can pay taxes and afford homes instead of insisting that they are stealing our jobs, because that is not how it works

People immigrating legally on the other hand pay taxes, and though they are recognized as full citizens, they don't automatically get all the perks that comes with sneaking in illegally.

While I think it would be perfectly fine to let all these illegals stay, it is important to make them pay taxes, and they need to be recorded. And they certainly can't live off of government welfare programs.



Sexism) Its not sexist to think Hillary is an awful person. Because she is.How is she more awful than Trump? I'm still confused by that conclusion And what people want is an outsider, someone who isn't corrupt and bought out by interest groups. I would call him corrupt, since he has avoided paying taxes for a long time, I'll use wikileaks as a source here because you did earlier, according to wikileaks, Donald Trump only paid 46 dollars in federal taxes in 2014, weren't you just complaining about how illegal immigrants don't pay taxes? But I don't think its possible to get into the White House without a whole lot of money. Which is why Trump is so popular. He's paying his own way into the White House, which should mean he isn't ham stringed by special interest groups, and behind the counter promises. Hopefully.

He probably is... but this reason is not why I dislike Hillary. That's a turning point for some people though.

As for his lack of experience, don't let anyone think for a second that he'll be a good president. Because he won't be.


  War) Now this one is funny, because I personally think we need a no fly zone over Syria, and we need to stop the Russian advance, not befriend it. So I kinda agree with Hillary on this one. Take that any way you want.
Now I don't believe for a second Russia would dare go to war with us. For all Putin's bragging they can't support it. Their economy is down even worse than ever before, their military, though large is subpar. And even for everyone's moaning and groaning the United States is still extremely powerful, and will remain so for some time.

So if she does become president, and she does create a no fly zone over Syria, which I doubt, but if she does, that would be a good thing. Obama's line of, "They're on the wrong side of History," When Russian invaded Georgia, when they did that incursion into Ukraine, and even now as they bomb Aleppo is obviously not stopping them. Strong American force of will, will.

L.T. Your view kinda seem more Libertarian than Republican to me as far as war, but my knowledge of the Libertarian party is very limited, but I am curious on your view on legalizing Marijuana.

[Groddil]

Well, I don't hear y'all screaming about Bush's 22 million deleted emails, just sayin'. Been and gone. We can't change the past, but we can prevent it from happening again.

Also, why would Trump say all those things if he doesn't wish to implement them, most people say things for a reason, I think all the horrifyingly radical things he said should be worrying people a lot more. What if Obama had done and said all the things Trump had? Would it be excused as "locker Room talk?" Two things. Either he does want to implement them, in which case good luck, because Mexico ain't paying for that wall and the rest of the government isn't gonna like the more radical ideas, or he's just saying it to appeal to a certain demographic.

This part especially bothers me, in order to enter the united states, these people have to have some prepared reason like family or employment relationships. Many of these immigrants are just trying to find a better place for themselves and their kids, free from the mess that is going on back in Mexico, and we should welcome them as fellow Americans, give them jobs so they can become legal and can pay taxes and afford homes instead of insisting that they are stealing our jobs, because that is not how it works Agreed.

How is she more awful than Trump? I'm still confused by that conclusion She wants war.

I would call him corrupt, since he has avoided paying taxes for a long time, I'll use wikileaks as a source here because you did earlier, according to wikileaks, Donald Trump only paid 46 dollars in federal taxes in 2014, weren't you just complaining about how illegal immigrants don't pay taxes? But I don't think its possible to get into the White House without a whole lot of money. Again, agreed. He's an utter git, but he's the lesser of two evils.

All in all, I think the voting order should be like this:

4. Hillary.
3. Trump.
2. Jill Stein
1. Kanye West Literally anybody else.

[alexandre]

Well, I don't hear y'all screaming about Bush's 22 million deleted emails, just sayin'. Been and gone. We can't change the past, but we can prevent it from happening again. not much I can argue with that other than that Trumps seems a lot more likely to cause a war like Bush did, also he will cause civil unrest within the US, I don't think he created racism or sexism in the Republican party, He merrily exposed it and now he is bringing the GOP down one word at a time every time he goes on record calling for Muslims in concentration camps, and losing his temper with frightening results, this man can not be elected to the second most powerful position in the world, I will remind you all that he is going on trial later this month for fraud at Trump University, and has 72 other pending lawsuits. LT, you said you won't defend any of the horrible things Trump said, or talk about the candidates as people, but doesn't who they are as a person reflect ultimately on their decisions? Don't you want someone elected to office who seems to actually have made past decisions in both personal and public life that reflect good values? Maybe the emails were a mistake? Hillary Clinton is human too, you and I have both made mistakes in the past, Hillary has owned up to her mistakes, apologized, does this not reflect good values as a person and therefore thoughtful and good decisions for the world. Trump never apologized for what he said and he never will. He is a bully, and the best way to start a war is to try and bully other countries into doing what you want. Getting things done in foreign affairs is done through policy, policy was invented so as to prevent conflict, Hillary has experience with this, experience in dealing with other countries and making agreements to benefit society as a whole. Trumps whole life has just been bullying people to make things go his way, and he has ultimately failed in his career. Four bankruptcies, Trump University: fail. Trump airlines: fail. Trump hotel: fail. Don't make America another one of Trump's failures.

Also, why would Trump say all those things if he doesn't wish to implement them, most people say things for a reason, I think all the horrifyingly radical things he said should be worrying people a lot more. What if Obama had done and said all the things Trump had? Would it be excused as "locker Room talk?" Two things. Either he does want to implement them, in which case good luck, because Mexico ain't paying for that wall and the rest of the government isn't gonna like the more radical ideas, or he's just saying it to appeal to a certain demographic.

This part especially bothers me, in order to enter the united states, these people have to have some prepared reason like family or employment relationships. Many of these immigrants are just trying to find a better place for themselves and their kids, free from the mess that is going on back in Mexico, and we should welcome them as fellow Americans, give them jobs so they can become legal and can pay taxes and afford homes instead of insisting that they are stealing our jobs, because that is not how it works Agreed.

How is she more awful than Trump? I'm still confused by that conclusion She wants war. So she is more likely to start a war than Trump? Isn't she the one who's job as secretary of state was literally to prevent warfare, while Trump can't even control his temper on twitter.

I would call him corrupt, since he has avoided paying taxes for a long time, I'll use wikileaks as a source here because you did earlier, according to wikileaks, Donald Trump only paid 46 dollars in federal taxes in 2014, weren't you just complaining about how illegal immigrants don't pay taxes? But I don't think its possible to get into the White House without a whole lot of money. Again, agreed. He's an utter git, but he's the lesser of two evils.

All in all, I think the voting order should be like this:

4. Hillary.Trump
3. Trump.Gary
2. Jill SteinJill
1. Kanye West Literally anybody else.Hillary

Feeling proud to be an Oregonian, goodnight Goddil.
http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/11/oregonians_on_track_to_cast_2.html

[Groddil]

How is she more awful than Trump? I'm still confused by that conclusion She wants war. So she is more likely to start a war than Trump? Isn't she the one who's job as secretary of state was literally to prevent warfare, while Trump can't even control his temper on twitter. The whole No-Fly zone thing? That even Trump thinks is a bad idea?

All in all, I think the voting order should be like this:

4. Hillary.Trump
3. Trump.Gary
2. Jill SteinJill
1. Kanye West Literally anybody else.Hillary

How is Jill Stein better than Gary Johnson? How is Hillary better than both of them? The only reason I put Miss "Vaccines cause Autism" above Hillary and Trump is because she's less insane than both of them. Gary's not a criminal, so he's better than Hillary, and he isn't mad, so he's better than Jill.

[Ashleg]

#Fourmoreyears.

Keep Obama I say, if anything it will only be like it is now.
He's not a raving lunatic and doesn't want war.

[Cornflower MM]

*Watches respect for fellow forumers nosedive*

[LT Sandpaw]

Wow, well I'll try not to get involved in a fight again, and the only way to answer a lot of these questions is to point out all of Hillary's flaws and shortcomings, all of which I did several posts back. And I wont be repeating myself.


As for pointing out my libertarian stance, you'd be right. I have very libertarian ideals, but I'm still Republican on my voters registration.
I think all drugs should be legal to use, but if some idiot uses them they shouldn't expect to be hired, or given Medicare or welfare.


alexandre I don't want to seem like a pompous jerk, and I know I can come off that way sometimes, but the idea that anyone has an obligation to anyone is simply not true. I believe that humans are naturally bad, which makes good acts all the more surprising, and irrational. I think you are clearly a good person, who wants to help people, but its important to make the distinction on whether something feels good, or whether it does good. And I think this is the big difference between the Left and the Right.



Now, I can look at Hillary's past, and Trump's past, and say. "These two people deserve to be in jail." But they aren't, and they are now running for office, which leaves me trying to choose between two very bad people, whom I might one day be taking an order from.

Take a view into my head real quick.

I'm a patriotic guy, my devotion is first to my country, if ya'll couldn't tell.    What Trump has done, going bankrupt, treating women badly, making these wild statements, ect I see a rude, unknowledgeable, jerk that I'd rather have nothing to do with.

But when I see what Hillary has done, selling government secrets to foreign powers, enabling her husband to rape his interns, and then belittling them when they tried to speak up, abandoning those Americans in Benghazi to die, ect I see a traitor.

This is why we can't get into identity politics. Because when I see a fight between a jerk and a traitor, I'll always go for the jerk. But when someone else is witness to the same truths as me, they might see a fight against a womanizer and a woman so they'll obviously make a different choice.

This is why this election in particular needs to be on policy rather than personality, because both candidates are horrible people, and both can be seen as the lesser of two evils.

Keep Obama I say, if anything it will only be like it is now.
He's not a raving lunatic and doesn't want war.

Heh, Obama has us in more wars then Bush could dream of.

And I actually dislike Obama more then Hillary, so that's a thing... Lets not discuss it though.

[Matthias720]

*Watches respect for fellow forumers nosedive*

Agreed. It doesn't really matter who you want to win; everyone else has someone they want to win just as much. All this debating a ultimately pointless and bordering on becoming unpleasant. I have my views, you have yours, and others have theirs. If we can't agree, at least let's agree to disagree and move on. All of this will surge towards the finish line in a few days anyway, so why don't we all just take a deep breath, shake hands, and go our separate ways?

[alexandre]

*Watches respect for fellow forumers nosedive*

Agreed. It doesn't really matter who you want to win; everyone else has someone they want to win just as much. All this debating a ultimately pointless and bordering on becoming unpleasant. I have my views, you have yours, and others have theirs. If we can't agree, at least let's agree to disagree and move on. All of this will surge towards the finish line in a few days anyway, so why don't we all just take a deep breath, shake hands, and go our separate ways?

I would like to point out that sometimes debating can be healthy. Yes it probably won't change anybody's mind, but it can help people to understand each other's views more and it makes people think more about their ideas and why they are what they are. Having that said, I will gladly stop.

[Jetthebinturong]

Allow me to preface this post by saying that I don't like the military. I hate that it exists and I hate that it is so glorified and seen as some great thing. But I have nothing but respect for war veterans, because sometimes you just have to fight.

I just watched a video of injured war veterans speaking against Donald Trump for how he trivialises the military. One especially powerful one was when the man who was captured by the Nazis watched the clip of Trump saying that POWs aren't war heroes (yes he did say that). I would link it but I found it on Facebook so I can't. I looked it up on Youtube and apparently it doesn't exist there, though there are several similar videos.

[Dannflor]

Well Trump might be an idiot, Clinton is evil!!! Now I'm not saying I like Trump! Quite the opposite I don't like either of them! Lets just vote for my cat Toppy!
#VoteToppy2016

[LT Sandpaw]

 

I would like to point out that sometimes debating can be healthy. Yes it probably won't change anybody's mind, but it can help people to understand each other's views more and it makes people think more about their ideas and why they are what they are.

THANK YOU! That's what I've been trying to say, I'm glad there's someone else that agrees with me.

[Kitsune]

*Watches respect for fellow forumers nosedive*

I agree. I find it hard to respect anyone who supports either side too strongly.

That being said, I do lean to one side just because the other is worse, but I do not wish to share my opinions on here.