Wylder's and Mhera's Wedding

[Wylder Treejumper]

@Jet the binturong: While I am glad you agree with me () I am currently discussing this in another topic, and I think this vein is likely to invoke dispute. Telling someone they are irrevocably wrong tends to do that...

[James Gryphon]

The dictionary says that Mormons are Christians.

Maybe Merriam-Webster's learner's dictionary does, but it's odd man out:

the popular name given to a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

?
a member of a religious group called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

n.
1. An ancient prophet believed to have compiled a sacred history of the Americas, which was translated and published by Joseph Smith as the Book of Mormon in 1830.
2. A member of the Mormon Church. Also called Latter-day Saint.
adj.
Of or relating to the Mormons, their religion, or the Mormon Church.

A member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a religion founded in the US in 1830 by Joseph Smith, Jr.

a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (commonly called the Mormon Church), founded in the U.S. in 1830 by Joseph Smith: among its sacred books is the Book of Mormon, represented by Smith as his translation of an account of some ancient American peoples by a prophet among them named Mormon

Full Definition of Mormon
1
:  the ancient redactor and compiler of the Book of Mormon presented as divine revelation by Joseph Smith
2
:  latter-day saint; especially :  a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

All the most common definitions say is that they call themselves the "Church of Jesus Christ", but you can call yourself something without being it. So, the dictionary doesn't provide any proof about whether they're actually Christian or not.

Incidentally, I don't think referring to the dictionary is a very sound argument. Even if all the dictionaries did agree on something, they could simply all be wrong. The affix "-ian" means "of or relating to". According to the Bible, which, according to Christians, God wrote, if someone isn't Spirit-filled, they're "none of His" (Romans 8:0). Obviously, people can't be Spirit-filled unless they believe Him and follow Him. So, those are the criteria we have to consider when determining whether someone is a Christian.

In your case, I know you don't believe in God. That doesn't change the definition of "Christian", though, to something other than the Biblical definition. It just means that you believe all people that claim to be Christian, by the Bible's definition, can't be.

Exhibit A: badge on the left. Most prominent feature?

Actually, I'd say the most prominent feature is "Elder". It's the word I noticed first.

[Jetthebinturong]

You shot yourself in the foot:

Christian - of or relating to Christ - Mormonism is related to Christ.

"According to the Bible, which, according to Christians, God wrote,"
*according to some Christians.

"Obviously people are only Spirit-filled if they believe Him and follow Him. So, those are the criteria we have to consider when determining whether someone is a Christian."
So are you saying Mormons don't believe in or follow Jesus?

No offense but the Bible doesn't matter when it comes to defining the word. It's not as if Christianity was always called Christianity - it was made up long after the fact. Therefore, something that was written before the word existed cannot claim to define it.

If what you mean is that Mormons aren't true Christians, then fine, that's your opinion. But they are, by definition, Christian.

[James Gryphon]

Here we go.

Christian - of or relating to Christ - Mormonism is related to Christ.

If an adult says that a child is not related to them, there's no adoption papers, and the DNA test is negative, no amount of the child claiming otherwise can change the facts. A "relationship" is not merely a one-way link. Otherwise, we would have to concede that anything called the "Democratic People's Republic" must be democratic, or at least "related to democracy", by virtue of their referring to it.

*according to some Christians.

I don't have a problem stating that if you don't believe in the Bible's Divine origin, you're not a Christian.

Insinuating otherwise is akin to someone claiming to be in the school of Socrates, without actually necessarily believing anything Plato, Xenophon, or even Aristophanes said about him, his doings, and beliefs. If you take away the only reference material we have, you don't know enough about that person to make any judgments about their character, and it becomes a meaningless and unfalsifiable term.

So are you saying Mormons don't believe in or follow Jesus?

If they contradict what Jesus and His Apostles taught, then they don't. What I'm saying is that that is the only way we have to know this, not whether they say they do or not.

No offense but the Bible doesn't matter when it comes to defining the word.

It does, in as much as it's the main source agreed upon by Christian-claimants of containing what Christ actually said and did, and thus the main way we have to determine whether somebody is in that model or not.

Something that is "-ian", is, by definition, like that thing. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that if you're doing things that directly contradict somebody, it's a bit of a stretch to claim that you're modeled after them.

But they are, by definition, Christian.

Not necessarily, by either the definitions I provided from the dictionary, or by the Bible's definition if they don't follow Christ.

Whether Mormonism is consistent with Christ's teachings is another argument. The point I'm getting at here is that you don't get to be an actual Christian by some means other than doctrinal alignment.

If you want to make up a category to put all the people who claim to be Christians in, then fine, but it's not the same concept, and it shouldn't get to use the same word.

[Søren]

Ahem.




WYLDERA!

[James Gryphon]

I think we've stirred up a hornet's nest.

[LT Sandpaw]

James would you consider Catholics Christian?

[The Skarzs]

Considering Catholics are the original, I would think so. . .

[James Gryphon]

Sandpaw: Well, I would ask the same questions I posed above to any denomination that claims to be Christian. Is what they teach consistent with Christ's and His Apostles' teachings? If it isn't, then by the Bible's definition they aren't truly Christian. I'm not saying that such people don't love what they believe or what they know about Christ, but they aren't all the way to the truth.

As for my personal evaluation of any particular church's doctrine, I've expressed my personal beliefs on the forums before, and you can draw from that what you will. I'll spell it out for you if you ask me privately, but I don't think it would be helpful to do so on a public forum. I might've poured gasoline on the wood, but you can't make me turn on the lighter.

[LT Sandpaw]

Yup I understand, I was just curious to see where you stood on that.

[Jetthebinturong]

Jesus did not call his followers Christian, and nor did they call themselves that until hundreds of years later. Therefore the Bible has no claim on the definition of "Christian." It is a catch-all term which applies to people who believe in Jesus, and was, in fact, originally used to mock said people.

The original followers of Jesus were merely referred to as Disciples. So you could say that Mormons are not Disciples of Jesus by the Bible's definition, but not that they are not Christian, because the term Christian was not coined until after the Bible was translated.

[James Gryphon]

It is a catch-all term which applies to people who believe in Jesus, and was, in fact, originally used to mock said people.

Here, I think, is our main point of contention, because I keep saying that many people called "Christians" may or may not actually believe in Jesus in the Biblical sense, which is the key determinant of their actual Christianness.

Now, stepping away from this a bit... if you were to say that the term "Christian" is used broadly today to describe all people who claim to believe in and follow Christ, I could and would agree with you. That's a statement of fact. I would, however, say that it shouldn't be that way, because of the structure of the word "Christian", specifically the affix "-ian".

That's all I'm trying to say.

[Jetthebinturong]

Fair enough.

[Søren]

[Fatch of Southsward]

All the different sects are loosely christian, with varying beliefs and doctrines. There is no doubt Mhera and Wyler's beliefs would clash at least slightly.

Regardless - who cares? This is a party! Turn up the music! Bring out the cake! Lets dance!