Rose of Noonvale - Sue?

[Ungatt Trunn]

ESPECIALLY Triss

Oh, yes. She's even got a book named after her...

[Tam and Martin]

I really like that hare, idk what book... Brocktree, I think. The one who got kicked out of Sala. Maudie, I think. She acted like she was a Sue, but wasn't very Sue-ish

Maudie was in Eulalia but there was a Dorothea who was a hare in Lord Brocktree.

[Dannflower Reguba]

I'm going to have to disagree on Martin the second, he never did anything.  All Martha did was overcome the sickness, not quite a sue really, just a bit un-realistic. I agree with Maudie and Lonna, and definitive stinking Tiria. I couldn't stand High Rhulain simply because Tiria WAS the book, Brian had lotsa of pretty cool characters but they were all shoved out of the way for a rather un-interesting replacement. Triss didn't really do much, but its been awhile, so I'll keep to myself on this one, might have forgotten something. Goona have to disagree on Deyna as well, he lost too much to be a Sue, he nearly died from a single arrow wound. If anything, Valug is the sue. (hitting a dragon fly's wing? get real)

Here's the biggest one in the series... And I really hate her.

Mariel

If you deny her sue-ness..... Then I have no words for you. She overpowers everyone she meets, fights of a multitude of birds with a rope when she's near death, manages to actually cause issues for a badger giving her a bath (you'd never even see an otter getting away with that) she beats an incredibly experienced squirrel (who later helps beat a bunch of vermin to kingdom come) singlehandedly takes on a giant bird, rescues her friends around every corner, puts a horde of Urgan's followers at bay until meeting the otter and badger. Basically she's a tiria multiplied by a Martha= Invincible physical prowess and extreme immunity to nasty physical disadvantages.


...

I'm really passionate about some of these, sorry if it comes across rudely. 

[Starla1431]

^Agree with most of what you said. But, I don't remember Valug killing a fly. Though it's been awhile since I read Taggerung. Even still I don't think that makes him a sue.

Also, the characters  you mentioned all kind of seem like sues. With Taria and Mariel being the biggest.

[Leatho Shellhound]

Goona have to disagree on Deyna as well, he lost too much to be a Sue, he nearly died from a single arrow wound. If anything, Valug is the sue. (hitting a dragon fly's wing? get real)

Are you sure it wasn't a figure of speech? BTW, it's Vallug Bowbeast, with two "l". 

[Dannflower Reguba]

I figured it had two l's, but I give no cares this day.   

Vallug was described as being able to shoot a dragon fly's wingtip, or one of those other thingies. And I didn't say that he was a sue, just much closer to being one than Deyna. 

[Ungatt Trunn]

Vallug was described as being able to shoot a dragon fly's wingtip, or one of those other thingies. And I didn't say that he was a sue, just much closer to being one than Deyna. 

That would make Vallug, like, the only vermin who was a sue. But he really wasn't a sue in my book.

[Dannflower Reguba]

Gosh darnit, I just got done saying that he wasn't necessarily a sue so much as being much closer to one than Deyna was!   

Now I'm trying to come up with sue-ish vermin, Gulo was over-powered, but that kind of comes with the species.... Hmmm... I'll have to think more on this one, but it stands to reason that they wouldn't be. Jaques was an honorable man, he wouldn't want to provide a "good" bad guy for kids to disjointedly look up too. He wanted to leave a positive influence, or at least that's what I've gathered from my experience.

[Ungatt Trunn]

Gosh darnit, I just got done saying that he wasn't necessarily a sue so much as being much closer to one than Deyna was! 

I know, I was just giving an opinion.

[Romsca]

Here's the biggest one in the series... And I really hate her.

Mariel

If you deny her sue-ness..... Then I have no words for you. She overpowers everyone she meets, fights of a multitude of birds with a rope when she's near death, manages to actually cause issues for a badger giving her a bath (you'd never even see an otter getting away with that) she beats an incredibly experienced squirrel (who later helps beat a bunch of vermin to kingdom come) singlehandedly takes on a giant bird, rescues her friends around every corner, puts a horde of Urgan's followers at bay until meeting the otter and badger. Basically she's a tiria multiplied by a Martha= Invincible physical prowess and extreme immunity to nasty physical disadvantages.

IKR?? I HATE her too, and it makes me SO MAD that ALL the OTHER females who read Redwall love her (including my mom). It seems to me that Brian Jacques was just trying to get more interest from his female fans. Personally, Mariel absolutely disgusts me. I have no desire to reread that book. Triss was a bit more bearable, and I felt I could... sort of at least... relate to Tiria. I prefer more BA characters like Romsca, though 

[Redwaller]

Redwall isn't the real world, so it's bound to have differences. Just my opinion...

[Starla1431]

Redwall isn't the real world, so it's bound to have differences. Just my opinion...

Yeah. Though I know some other fiction books that don't have perfect Mary/Gary Sues.

[Ungatt Trunn]

Wow, we've gotten allot of opinions on the subject...

[Osu]

What ho, everybody agreeing on something! Well let me just throw a stick into the wheel here...

I don't hate sues. When I was a kid, Martin and Mariel were my absolute favorite characters ever; I looked up to Mariel as a sort of role model. Been a while since I read the book, but I've got plenty to say on the topic of sues and such.

On the definition of sues: I believe a sue is a character that is perfect as a result of poor character development on the author's part. Perfect characters that are well rounded -- that's not an oxymoron, I've met people like that and it seems perfectly fine to me if a few fictional characters possess the trait, too -- are not a Bad Thing. Although I guess they're technically still sues.

There's a time and a place for this sort of character, and I think Redwall qualifies; it's directed at children. It is deliberately simplified in all aspects for this reason. So it follows that the character archetypes would be simplified as well, though Jacques kind of got away from that with the later books. Mariel represented having the strength to pick oneself up and move forward, to become something stronger and faster and smarter than something she had no chance of defeating. I recall thinking, "I want to be like that; if Mariel could do it, so can I." It seems to me that was the natural response expected from young readers. She might have been "too perfect," but she was a well-developed character.

Rose, on the other hand, was not given enough of the spotlight to really develop into the sort of flawed, rounded characters people expect or assume her to be. Whether or not that makes her a sue is irrelevant; she shouldn't be weighed on the same scale as the "complete" characters. (But if I had to say one way or the other, I'd say she counts as a sue.)

Tiria is a little harder for me to gauge. I didn't think she was perfect or overpowering, particularly, but things did seem a little too convenient as far as her adventure went. Whatever the case, she wasn't half as perfect as the Long Patrol hares. *swoon*

All my own personal opinions, of course! Hey, on the subject of sues, why aren't we talking about the boys, too? Gonff, Brocktree, and Tam, for example...

[Tam and Martin]

I'm not a Sue!

Jk.