hey guys, I've been wondering, what's the history behind the ditch in front of redwall? ??? I'm thinking it was from building and landscaping parts of the abbey?
What do you think?
I always thought it was for drainage purposes... like, when it rains a lot, the ditch is probably filled with water. ???
Quote from: Osu on June 29, 2011, 05:45:24 PM
I always thought it was for drainage purposes... like, when it rains a lot, the ditch is probably filled with water. ???
Another reason to keep the dibbuns inside. Otherwise they might decide to get barrels or something and sail in the water.
Quote from: HeadInAnotherGalaxy on June 29, 2011, 06:19:43 PMAnother reason to keep the dibbuns inside. Otherwise they might decide to get barrels or something and sail in the water.
Haha, that'd make a cute subplot. Some dibbuns sail down the ditch one day and have to be tracked down. Adventure afoot! I love it.
I wonder about the sparrows. They don't come in any other books after Mattimeo. Did the sparras leave? Did they die out?
The Dibbuns are very naughty. Don't go to the ditch!
Quote from: Redwall Musician on June 30, 2011, 07:07:42 PM
I wonder about the sparrows. They don't come in any other books after Mattimeo. Did the sparras leave? Did they die out?
The Dibbuns are very naughty. Don't go to the ditch!
Remember? Their Queen and most of the others died, so I think they must have died out or something.
Did you know that Redwall Abbey was built over Castle Kotir? It's in The Long Patrol.
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on July 01, 2011, 06:13:07 AM
Did you know that Redwall Abbey was built over Castle Kotir? It's in The Long Patrol.
Yes, now you mention it - was there a ditch mentioned in
Mossflower? That might explain it. Perhaps it was a moat of sorts for the old castle, or... or something?
I don't know. I'll have to re-read Mossflower.
Quote from: Osu on June 29, 2011, 05:45:24 PM
I always thought it was for drainage purposes... like, when it rains a lot, the ditch is probably filled with water. ???
That could be true, but then why wouldn't the ditch be all the way up and down the path instead of just by redwall?
Maybe (and this is a long shot) but in
The Long Patrol , it said that after Kotir was destroyed, most of the area where Redwall was was a swamp. Maybe parts of the castle fell and made a big hole in the ground that later hardened and the ditch. Again, probably not true BUT a possibility.
Also, does anybody remember that mutant-rat-like thing in
Mossflower ? I forget it's name but it fought a pike and died. Anyway, it lived beneath Kotir in an underground pond/SPRING. When Kotir was destroyed and Redwall was built, an underground spring became the abbey pond. If you connect the two it makes sense... Kinda creepy though that and murderous mutant-rat lived where the abbey pond is and dibbuns play in it. Just thought that part was interesting...
That's an interesting theory! And I'd forgotten about that rat-thing, I must re-read that book... aww shoot, I have to re-read them all. XD
Aaaand yes... this is kind of creepy now that you mention it. =/
Very interesting theories. I had never thought about the ditch that much.
the ditch seems to have been there...as far as I know, since Legend of Luke so it was there at Redwall's founding, but not before Kotir....hmmm....really interesting...my personal opinion is that it was mouse/creature made not a side-effect of Kotir's destruction....
Quote from: Captain Tammo on July 02, 2011, 06:22:25 PM
Quote from: Osu on June 29, 2011, 05:45:24 PM
I always thought it was for drainage purposes... like, when it rains a lot, the ditch is probably filled with water. ???
Also, does anybody remember that mutant-rat-like thing in Mossflower ? I forget it's name but it fought a pike and died. Anyway, it lived beneath Kotir in an underground pond/SPRING. When Kotir was destroyed and Redwall was built, an underground spring became the abbey pond. If you connect the two it makes sense... Kinda creepy though that and murderous mutant-rat lived where the abbey pond is and dibbuns play in it. Just thought that part was interesting...
It was called the Gloomer. That thing was so creepy!
There was no tunnel the Gloomer used. It was taken out by Kotir's gate to the area near the otters' hideout. That is, there was no tunnel that was known of, but there's no reason to think there was.
Quote from: Captain Tammo on July 02, 2011, 06:22:25 PM
Quote from: Osu on June 29, 2011, 05:45:24 PM
I always thought it was for drainage purposes... like, when it rains a lot, the ditch is probably filled with water. ???
That could be true, but then why wouldn't the ditch be all the way up and down the path instead of just by redwall?
Maybe (and this is a long shot) but in The Long Patrol , it said that after Kotir was destroyed, most of the area where Redwall was was a swamp. Maybe parts of the castle fell and made a big hole in the ground that later hardened and the ditch. Again, probably not true BUT a possibility.
I guess I just assumed it was connected with the destruction of Kotir...I never really thought about it before.
Never thought anything about the ditch until it was brought up. My first thought was Kotir...maybe something caved in, or something of that sort, and voila, there's a ditch. There's no explicit mention to my knowledge if Redwall is directly over Kotir or were their portions of the former that sank into the earth in time or crumbled away. Interesting conversation piece here.
I just realized, it could be connected to Kotir's destruction because the ditch goes way past the abbey in both directions
^ About all that's been brought up is the pond and that having been Gloomer's home. If that was once inside Kotir's walls, and its now inside Redwall's then they could be the same size, but you would think of settling ground, especially if Redwall is built over the foundations of Kotir. ;)
It said in the long patrol that Kotir was literally buried naturally and redwall went over it. Then they discovered a spring in the middle of the abbey grounds and it became the pond. I think that was glommer's pond because it had to be a spring under Kotir. I doubt the guards would bring all that water down to the tunnels beneath Kotir just because.
Alright, I pulled out Mossflower, read it through, and based on the book, Kotir crumbled within the natural lake formed when it was flooded. If this is what became the abbey pond, then Kotir's ruins are in the depths of the pond and probably along the grounds. It seems less likely the foundations are the cause of the ditch.
I just assumed the ditch was always there as a natural formation. It's mentioned before the abbey was built and seems to continue for a long way down the path.
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on July 01, 2011, 06:11:01 AM
Quote from: Redwall Musician on June 30, 2011, 07:07:42 PM
I wonder about the sparrows. They don't come in any other books after Mattimeo. Did the sparras leave? Did they die out?
The Dibbuns are very naughty. Don't go to the ditch!
Remember? Their Queen and most of the others died, so I think they must have died out or something.
No they didn't! In the epilogue of Mattimeo, it clearly states that the Sparra are flourishing and maintaining contact with the Redwallers. They renamed the roof spaces "Warbeak's Loft" in honor of their fallen queen, but they did not die out. I highly recommend you re-read the epilogue of Mattimeo.
It didn't draw any attention to technical details regarding their fate, it only stated they were floruishing.
I think that the ditch was caused when one of the tunnels use to flood Kotir caved in. It seem very likely.
Quote from: Lady Amber on July 27, 2011, 03:48:00 PM
I think that the ditch was caused when one of the tunnels use to flood Kotir caved in. It seem very likely.
The tunnels were in a different area than the ditch, and the ditch was already there.
There was a big deal over Martin, Gonff and Dinny's three vermin pursuers getting over it.
It could have been a stream or creek that dried up.
Yeah, I think it might be a runoff from the river that eroded the ditch, then eventually dried up
Yes. There is a 99.99% chance that the ditch is a dried up stream.
There's no such thing as percentage in this kind of thing, that's just fanon.
Afterall, there is no explanation, and there won't be.
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on August 05, 2011, 12:25:31 AM
there is no explanation, and there won't be.
I disagree, there are many explanations as to why the ditch got there, and I'm certain there IS an answer, maybe it's mentioned on one of the stories, maybe we'll never find out. But there are individual explanations that are possible
Hold up, mate. I meant no explanation for certain. And also, in all the books I've read, it is not mentioned, and some who've read them plenty more than me echo that statement. The explanations given by fans are labeled fandom, they're speculation, as you said.
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on August 05, 2011, 03:23:38 PM
I meant no explanation for certain.
O sorry my bad, I just misinterpreted
I still think the ditch is a dried up stream. Anyway, this subject is about the whole of Redwall, not the ditch. The ditch isn't even part of Redwall!! I personally wonder about the gatehouse. In Redwall and Mattimeo is is portrayed as a gatehouse cottage where creatures can live, and then in Pearls of Lutra, which chronologically takes place right after Mattimeo, it is portayed as just a gatehouse with the abbey's records in it. And hat about the underground tunnels that the moles dug in Ironbeak's seige? They are never mentioned again after the epilogue of that book.
It was in Mattimeo where the gatehouse was portrayed as a cottage. In High Rhulain, a family of dormice lived there. In the rest of the books, various other creatures held abode.
Probably just not relevant for another Redwall tale, so Brian left them as a mystery and unconcern.
Hmm. What about the tunnels dug underground by the moles during Ironbeak's seige? It says in the epilogue that they are used later on as an underground winter system, but they are never used by the Redwallers again, or even mentioned.
That's what the last line I posted was about, I just didn't state that it was.
What about the few Redwall books that began in winter, like Rakkety Tam? The tunnels would have been great to use then.
In the redwall cartoons, the gatehouse is off to the side of the gate itself, but shouldn't it be inside the main gate?
I don't get what you mean. The gatehouse is to the north of the main gate against the wall, not reaching to the ramparts.
I always thouht the gatehouse was IN the main gate. I got the "build your own redwall" kit when I was littler and it was inside the main gate, not off to the north of it
I really want that Build your own Redwall Abbey kit. I can't find it nywhere in the US stores though, and I am not allowed to order stuff online. :(
It was really neat, but it was all thin cardboard and never really stayed together, which made it hard to play with. But it gave me an AMAZING visual of the abbey and where things were. As far as if it was worth it or not? I'm not really sure. I paid $40 US dollars for it and it just sat there a lot... It had it's pros and cons I guess
Quote from: Captain Tammo on June 29, 2011, 05:22:34 PM
hey guys, I've been wondering, what's the history behind the ditch in front of redwall? ??? I'm thinking it was from building and landscaping parts of the abbey?
What do you think?
I think it was put there for the sole pourpose of the vermin they always go for the ditch it helps in alot of plots.I also really want the build your own redwall abbey but hav'nt seen it anywhere? :(
I had to get it online. But back to my other question, the kit showed the gatehouse IN the main gate. That's always what it sounded like in the books too IMO. It seems only the cartoon is different.
Quote from: Captain Tammo on June 29, 2011, 05:22:34 PM
hey guys, I've been wondering, what's the history behind the ditch in front of redwall? ??? I'm thinking it was from building and landscaping parts of the abbey?
What do you think?
No the ditch was there in "Mossflower' the book BEFORE they build the abbey.
I still think it's a dried up river. :P
This is a suggestion, but maybe it could've been a very, very, very small abyss like the one in Mattimeo, although once again, much much smaller.
;D maybee it was used as a defense system
I guess we'll never know for sure. I kind of like not knowing much about Mossflower and the world of redwall... It keeps things interesting. If everything was perfectly simple and clear as black and white, what fun would that be??? It would take away from the adventure in my opinion..
if'n ye read MOSSFLOWER ye would see dat Diny, Gnoff, and Martin Jumped o'er a ditch. This is the didtch in fron o' Redwall. ;D
yup, but i think it was dug so an enemy could only charge the gates if they were over ditch, thus in weapon range.
how would it have been dug as an attack syrem if'n there was noting tae attack
I think it may have been a defense system developed by those that built Kotir.
interesting
Quote from: Nightfire on November 28, 2011, 03:44:09 PM
I think it may have been a defense system developed by those that built Kotir.
Never thought of that.
but then why was it so far from Kotir
its not, if you read long patrol it says the south wall of the abbey is built on one of Koiters walls so it isnt far from Koiter
oh...;)
Think: Kotir, vs an invading army. The army would have to cross the ditch first, and that would give the Kotir defenders time to fire off a few dozen volleys of arrows, which would mow down the first batch of invanders.
That would actually make an interesting fanfic....
ah mite make it ;)
Yeah but I think the ditch was made by the castle Kotir and that pond rat just made a secret escape cave but over time the cave caved in on itself creating a ditch. Ever thought of that?
I think that's unlikely. The Gloomer was kept on a lead, remember?
I have to agree with the defensive thought in making the ditch. Invading armies could easily be pinned and trapped in the ditch by a few archers and slingers. And if anyone wishes to make the argument that it's a nice place to dig into the castle/abbey, vermin were never the smartest, and they may not take that into consideration.
Are we talking about the ditch in front of redwall?i have wonderd what that is used for
It said in some book, one I can't remember, that there was a lake where Kotir fell. I think it shrank into a pond, then during a drought it dried up into a ditch.
That's a good idea.
Quote from: Lord Gorath on November 18, 2012, 02:20:55 AM
It said in some book, one I can't remember, that there was a lake where Kotir fell. I think it shrank into a pond, then during a drought it dried up into a ditch.
SPOILER ALERT FOR MOSSFLOWER
What happened was Kotir was flooded by the river Moss in a plot to bring it down. Some moles from CORIM dug tunnels into the deepest chambers of Kotir and connected them to River Moss. Then the water of the river went right into Kotir, flooding it from inside out! This made the whole area look like a lake and, after the battle was over and the tunnels were plugged up again, the area turned into a swamp and, finally solid ground. The pond in the abbey is a natural spring.
Sorry about the double post, but how tall are Redwall's walls?
Big!
Look at those people in the picture as being otters
(http://www.sucs.org/~cmckenna/photos/caernarfon_castle/castle-walls-from-street1.jpg)
Wow
That helps quite a bit! Which castle is that? Or is it a fort??
Quote from: Captain Tammo on December 30, 2012, 07:12:19 PM
That helps quite a bit! Which castle is that? Or is it a fort??
Caernarfon castle, Look it up to see more pictures.
Do you think there's any connection between Rose, Martin's love, and the fact that he built an abbey that Jacques so often describes as having "Rose colored walls"?
Um well he planted the late rose from her grave near the wall.
Quote from: Osu on July 01, 2011, 08:22:25 PM
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on July 01, 2011, 06:13:07 AM
Did you know that Redwall Abbey was built over Castle Kotir? It's in The Long Patrol.
Yes, now you mention it - was there a ditch mentioned in Mossflower? That might explain it. Perhaps it was a moat of sorts for the old castle, or... or something?
I think it was the old lake that Martin and co. Filled up again then when it went down they built the abbey ao I wonder if it was the edges of the lake that the abbey didn't cover up
There was no ditch mentioned in Mossflower, but they would have had to drain the water from Kotir's ruins/lake somehow. My take on it is that the ditch originated from drainage lines Dinny and the moles would have dug to move the water.
And as far as the Abbey pond is concerned, it would have been one of the low points that never drained properly (must likely where the flood holes were placed), and so volia! a pond that is river fed.
Those are just my takes on it though...
Quote from: Mattio on January 27, 2013, 08:24:47 PM
I think it was the old lake that Martin and co. Filled up again then when it went down they built the abbey ao I wonder if it was the edges of the lake that the abbey didn't cover up
That couldn't be it. Because then the ditch would circle the abbey
Quote from: Captain Tammo on February 04, 2013, 10:08:30 PM
Quote from: Mattio on January 27, 2013, 08:24:47 PM
I think it was the old lake that Martin and co. Filled up again then when it went down they built the abbey ao I wonder if it was the edges of the lake that the abbey didn't cover up
That couldn't be it. Because then the ditch would circle the abbey
I think he just added it for the book.
That couldn't be it. Because then the ditch would circle the abbey
[/quote]
Doesn't the ditch line the path?
I THINK I'VE GOT IT!!!! And please forgive me if one of you has already mentioned this theory...
Note how whenever Brian says it rains, he almost always says the ditch fills up with water. Here is my theory, the ditch was purposefully put in by the creatures building Redwall to catch water from sitting right on the path. This means the path would have to have been made with a slant, which Brian never mentions if it was (as far as I know). But it would certainly explain a lot! Brian said that beyond the ditch was flatlands. And we can imagine that Redwall was also built on flat land. Putting a ditch in between there would give the water someplace to go so its not just sitting there.
Could be, also it could be a defence, like motes at castles.
The last few posts make sence.
So which is it? Sould I make a pole?
It seems like it doesn't serve any practical purpose. I think Brian added it just so vermin hordes could hide in it. I mean, whenever vermin attack Redwall, they always hide in the ditch.
Maybe some vermin dug it early on to hide in and the Redwallers never filled it back in
Quote from: Romsca on April 09, 2013, 09:55:44 PM
Maybe some vermin dug it early on to hide in and the Redwallers never filled it back in
Maybe! But it would have to be before Mariel of Redwall, because the ditch was there then.
True, true.....
I think that the dich was just there naturly. It didn'y have to be creature-created.....
But if it wasn't there in "Mossflower". So it would have to have been made naturally right before "Legend of Luke", because I think it was there then.
Quote from: Osu on July 01, 2011, 08:22:25 PM
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on July 01, 2011, 06:13:07 AM
Did you know that Redwall Abbey was built over Castle Kotir? It's in The Long Patrol.
Yes, now you mention it - was there a ditch mentioned in Mossflower? That might explain it. Perhaps it was a moat of sorts for the old castle, or... or something?
But the ditch follows the path all the way to river moss.
Revive. Yeah, old topic, but I'd just like to put in my two cents on the matter.
Ever since I heard about the ditch when I read the books, I had always assumed that it was made there for a couple reasons: First, to provide the material to make the path. When a road or anything is made, extra dirt and stuff is added to fill in low spots, as well as putting another layer on top for when it is compacted; roads must be packed down so as to stay sturdy enough for travel. Secondly, the ditch would let rain drain off toward wherever it lead, keeping water from ruining the path/road.
Totally agree there. Back in their time, they didn't have cement or concrete so they would have to compact the dirt down so it would be safe to travel on.
Yeah good point there, Skarzs.
I strongly doubt that the Redwallers put in the ditch just to use as defense since they always had the safety of their walls to be behind. If it was put there for defense, that would be a pretty lousy call on the architect's part seeing as how every horde that lays siege to Redwall uses the ditch as cover. Perhaps that's it!!
You see, Brian never specifically tells us why the ditch is there, right? In the first book, Redwall, the ditch is simply shown as being there. But consider this, I think Brian wanted a creative way to shield the villains from fire up on the wall tops, so he just... Made the ditch a thing to spice it up a bit! Could you imagine how easy it would have been for Redwall to be defended if there was no ditch for villains to hide behind? it'd be almost boring! I also think that maybe Brian included the ditch so that you couldn't have things like siege towers coming straight at the wall. The ditch ends up serving as an interesting environmental advantage and disadvantage on both sides of the fight.
Then, as the series moves along, we see that the ditch appears to be something that stretches up and down the path a ways. I don't recall if this was something mentioned in Redwall, but I think Brian just added a little bit where it became a much bigger ditch than in the first book, serving as all kinds of things, mainly trash and a sort of drainage system for the local area.
So to summarize, perhaps the ditch was just a thing that Brian added because he could? Then it went on to serve a bunch of functions and play a surprisingly big role in the series.