I'll admit it -- dibbuns annoy me.
Now, let me qualify that by saying that the ones in the first three books -- Silent Sam, Ferdy, Coggs, Spike, Posy, Tim and Tess, etc., from what I remember, are mostly pretty tame. They're obedient to their parents/elders/immediate guardians, have at least half a clue what's going on, and know when to keep quiet. I don't have any problem with them. If all the dibbuns in the series behaved kind of like them, we wouldn't have this topic.
From Mariel of Redwall on, though, it seems that these little villains are just incorrigible. They're allowed to get away with just about anything and everything. What's worse, if a responsible beast like Sister Cicely or someone tries to straighten them out, someone else, like the Father Abbot, will come along and encourage them to ignore whatever it is that they were told to do or not do. Although Arven isn't the most annoying of all of these characters, he stands out as still probably the best example of what they're like. He bothers Viola Bankvole and gets away with it -- leaving the blame to be pinned on Tansy instead. On several occasions, he's even a direct obstacle to the heroes in their quest to find the Pearls of Lutra, and they have to stop and try to straighten him out before they can do whatever it is they needed to do.
Furthermore, nobody ever bothers to watch the gates or do anything at all to make sure that the dibbuns are kept in their proper, safe places. I understand it probably isn't convenient to have a babysitter or someone specifically watching all of the dibbuns 24/7, but you'd think it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to at least child-proof the doors in and out of the abbey, and put up some locked doors or something to keep them from going up on the walls (since there is no good reason for them to be there). The heroes, of course, will tell the dibbuns, "don't do this or that", but it's really just a waste of breath since you know the dibbuns will go and do that very thing the moment nobody's standing there to stop them.
What are y'all's thoughts on these characters?
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 14, 2011, 04:14:51 AM
Now, let me qualify that by saying that the ones in the first three books -- Silent Sam, Ferdy, Coggs, Spike, Posy, Tim and Tess, etc.
What are y'all's thoughts on these characters?
They're from Redwall. xD
I mean really, I absolutely love the line of The Sable Quean.
Actually, Tim and Tess (to your stated standards, the most tame I'd say) weren't dibbuns. They were older than that, if I'm not mistaken.
But yeah, dibbuns are a favorite class of mine.
Well, technically speaking, I'm not sure any of them are from Redwall. ;) Sam was a woodlander, Ferdy and his siblings were all before the Abbey was ever built, and Tim and Tess were churchmice, as I recall. ;)
I don't know, I just kind of like it when the dibbuns are in their proper place, and when the Redwallers don't make extremely questionable parenting decisions in the process of keeping them. I have no problem sympathizing with younger heroes, I'd just prefer for them to have a clue what they're doing and what's going on, like Tansy, or Craklyn, or Viola, or so on. The plot device of the silly, ignorant dibbuns inadvertently saving Redwall or causing disproportionate amounts of trouble for the villains despite not really understanding anything that's happening just doesn't strike as much of a chord with me. I guess it's fine if others like it, but it isn't my cup of tea.
You misunderstood my post. I meant "from Redwall" to apply to all dibbuns in general. If they're called a dibbun, then they're a Redwaller, as it is the Abbey name for young ones.
I wasn't referring to the ones you listed.
I think they're meant to sounds like regular old tots, human-wise. Generally, they're loud, constantly pushing the limits of what they can and can't do, argumentitive, loud... LOUD... that the dibbuns of Redwall appear to have some sense of goodness in them as well is what's interesting to me. They do errands for their elders and have chores, I think, because it's mentioned in
Mattimeo that Matti has never had to lift a paw to work, unlike his peers.
As for watching the gates, the only time dibbuns escape as far as I can recall are when the adults are distracted with something else. They always pick up on missing dibbuns pretty quick and the entire abbey gets to searching, which would indicate to me that there aren't any ignorant parents in the building per se - just the obliging, old, doting kind. They always seem to grow into good abbey creatures, so it must not be that bad.
In short:
QuoteThe heroes, of course, will tell the dibbuns, "don't do this or that", but it's really just a waste of breath since you know the dibbuns will go and do that very thing the moment nobody's standing there to stop them.
This describes human kids to a T. I agree they can get pretty darn annoying. XD I wouldn't say they're out of control, though.
And have I ever told you your posts are always so awesomely detailed and well thought out? Cos they totally are. ;D
I agree with Osu, your posts are always full of food for thought, James.
The dibbuns don't really bother me. Their antics aren't my favourite part of the books, granted, but I don't hate them either. I always wondered one thing when reading about them though - where were their parents? They're always described as being in the care or the infirmary sister or a badgermum, but what were their parents doing? When they go missing, the whole Abbey goes searching for them but their parents are rarely mentioned.
Having said that, one young 'un that really did get on my nerves was Skittles from Lord Brocktree. I know he's not technically a dibbun because he wasn't from Redwall, but he displays a lot of the attributes James was talking about before. He gets away with anything with absolutely no punishment, and that did annoy me.
QuoteThe heroes, of course, will tell the dibbuns, "don't do this or that", but it's really just a waste of breath since you know the dibbuns will go and do that very thing the moment nobody's standing there to stop them.
I just came back from "teaching English" to a bunch of 4-year-olds, and... yes. ;)
Quote from: Lily on July 14, 2011, 05:50:58 AM
I always wondered one thing when reading about them though - where were their parents? They're always described as being in the care or the infirmary sister or a badgermum, but what were their parents doing?
I kinda got the impression that if their parentage wasn't specifically mentioned, they were probably orphaned some way or another; after all, in
Outcast of Redwall, it seemed that the unusual thing about Veil wasn't that he was (presumed to be) an orphan, but that he was a ferret. It doesn't seem unlikely that this sort of thing is a common occurrence for the Abbey, especially since most of the residents of Redwall (after
Redwall and
Mattimeo) show no signs of being married to anyone.
I suppose it is to be expected that toddlers will be somewhat like that... the truth is that I'm kind of uncomfortable with real, human kids in the first place; they strike me as messy, and it's a little tricky for me to understand what they're saying sometimes, and they're so unpredictable; with all that in mind, I guess I'm really kind of prejudiced against the dibbuns here. ;) Hopefully it's something that I'll grow out of eventually.
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 14, 2011, 06:10:44 AM
I suppose it is to be expected that toddlers will be somewhat like that... the truth is that I'm kind of uncomfortable with real, human kids in the first place; they strike me as messy, and it's a little tricky for me to understand what they're saying sometimes, and they're so unpredictable; with all that in mind, I guess I'm really kind of prejudiced against the dibbuns here. ;) Hopefully it's something that I'll grow out of eventually.
My prejudice is the other way - I love hanging out with kids. I love the hilarious things they say, and I love that they're so carefree. If they like you they tell you, and if they don't they let you know some other not-so-subtle way. ;) I enjoy the depictions of the dibbuns because they are almost exactly like how real children would be, if maybe a little wilder.
I suppose it makes sense that our real-life feelings towards kids affect the way we react to them in stories!
Those disobedient Dibbuns make me so MAAAAAAD! >:( >:( >:( >:( Specially Arven. He is allowed to get away unscathed after giving Viola Bankvole a nightmare, and he doesn't get punished as far as I can remember, after running off into Mossflower just to get some attention.
Things were better kept in line when there was a Badgermum or someone.
I like the dibbuns, sometimes they are very funny. But, you would think there would be some quieter shy ones too just like in real life. (Ever been in preschool? The kids are almost always either rowdy or shy.)
I don't like it when the dibbuns do something bad and than get no punishment. That just teaches them that they can get away with anything.
Silent Sam, Ferdy, Coggs, Spike, Posy, Tim and Tess are some of my favorite dibbuns too. Although some of them might be older then the dibbuns in other books. I like that Silent Sam loves his mom and is protective of her. (like when she climbs up the abbey wall.) But, then again I don't know how old Sam is.
I agree that your posts, James, always have a lot to think about.
I would choose a good deal of the later dibbuns as my favorites, including members of various DAB crews.
An interesting thing with dibbuns are in war. They are restricted back to the Abbey, and sometimes the cellars even. Yet on numerous occasions they escape and deal the enemy a crushing blow. Such as rope-cutting on the eastern wall with the friar's knives.
More fascinating if not as triumphiant, was the bell tolling in Doomwyte. SPOILER: It accounted for the life of a raven, crushing it to death and giving the two dibbuns a reputation for a victory, which they took to heart a good deal. end spoiler.
In the Sable Quean, the dibbuns end up having to deal with young babes. They are much less independent, and tend to cry a good deal, very unlike the dibbuns/Guosim young ones there.
I agree with what you say about the dibbuns being unpunished. But in real life, kids never get punished any more. Most of them have their parents doing whatever they want, and are spoiled rotten. Arven made Viola have a bad dream (I haven't read that book in a while, so forgive me if this is wrong). He should have been punished, but in the end didn't. That's alright by me. If Brian wanted the dibbuns to act like so, then they will act like so.
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 14, 2011, 04:14:51 AM
I understand it probably isn't convenient to have a babysitter or someone specifically watching all of the dibbuns 24/7, but you'd think it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to at least child-proof the doors in and out of the abbey, and put up some locked doors or something to keep them from going up on the walls (since there is no good reason for them to be there).
Oh my! That made me laugh! Sorry, it did! Child-proof doors. Trust me it does NOT work. First of all: they didn't have the technology back then. Second: Kids can get out of any thing! All this new stuff they have does not work. Determined kids if they put there minds to something can get out of any lock. I happen to have first-class experience. Alarms: Failed. Locks: Failed.
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 14, 2011, 06:10:44 AM
I suppose it is to be expected that toddlers will be somewhat like that... the truth is that I'm kind of uncomfortable with real, human kids in the first place; they strike me as messy, and it's a little tricky for me to understand what they're saying sometimes, and they're so unpredictable; with all that in mind, I guess I'm really kind of prejudiced against the dibbuns here. ;) Hopefully it's something that I'll grow out of eventually.
Kids, especially 2-5 year olds are hard to understand. I love them so much. They are cute. Back too topic, kids don't understand. I know an older kid who doesn't understand things. It is the way of life. But I know some who are really smart. So maybe Tess, Tim, and all the other ones mentioned are just really smart.
Sorry for the long post.
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 14, 2011, 04:14:51 AM
I'll admit it -- dibbuns annoy me.
Now, let me qualify that by saying that the ones in the first three books -- Silent Sam, Ferdy, Coggs, Spike, Posy, Tim and Tess, etc., from what I remember, are mostly pretty tame. They're obedient to their parents/elders/immediate guardians, have at least half a clue what's going on, and know when to keep quiet. I don't have any problem with them. If all the dibbuns in the series behaved kind of like them, we wouldn't have this topic.
From Mariel of Redwall on, though, it seems that these little villains are just incorrigible. They're allowed to get away with just about anything and everything. What's worse, if a responsible beast like Sister Cicely or someone tries to straighten them out, someone else, like the Father Abbot, will come along and encourage them to ignore whatever it is that they were told to do or not do. Although Arven isn't the most annoying of all of these characters, he stands out as still probably the best example of what they're like. He bothers Viola Bankvole and gets away with it -- leaving the blame to be pinned on Tansy instead. On several occasions, he's even a direct obstacle to the heroes in their quest to find the Pearls of Lutra, and they have to stop and try to straighten him out before they can do whatever it is they needed to do.
I've had nearly identical thoughts yesterday, and I agree 100%. It seems like with the term Dibbun, the dibbun stereotype was introduced in the series, and became one of the series' weakest points (for me at least.
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 14, 2011, 04:53:00 AM
You misunderstood my post. I meant "from Redwall" to apply to all dibbuns in general. If they're called a dibbun, then they're a Redwaller, as it is the Abbey name for young ones.
I wasn't referring to the ones you listed.
Sorry for double-posting but I remember non-Redwallers being referred to as dibbuns in some of the later books.
And let's face it, after Mattimeo, the books don't discriminate based on origin, they only discriminate based on age. Dwopple, for example, was part of Florian's troupe but acted like the typical Redwall dibbun. It's redundant and realistically inaccurate, not to mention that it can be, ironically, a bit insulting to the target readers of the Redwall series
Insulting? No, it's not. Maybe for the odd one of a million, but no, it's never been so. Look around the ROC, suppose anyone's insulted by dibbuns?
And it seems my posts need to be less vague. You misunderstood what I said.
The line "I meant "from Redwall" to apply to all dibbuns in general." was stating the reference to The Sable Quean and was an independent line.
The following line was operating on a separate basis, and was identifying the meaning of dibbun. Though, as you said, the term was used for more than just Redwallers.
Personally I always doubted that the majority of Redwall readers are members of the ROC.
Yes, with no doubt.
But that is still beside the point.
I have to agree with the majority here. The dibbuns are a lot like normal kids. And as Gonff mentioned, there are the shy, non-rowdy ones as well. Sure, they can be annoying, but so can human kids. ;) And, by the way, I thought DAB was pretty awesome.
Quote from: Redwall Musician on July 14, 2011, 04:43:48 PM
I agree with what you say about the dibbuns being unpunished. But in real life, kids never get punished any more. Most of them have their parents doing whatever they want, and are spoiled rotten. Arven made Viola have a bad dream (I haven't read that book in a while, so forgive me if this is wrong). He should have been punished, but in the end didn't. That's alright by me. If Brian wanted the dibbuns to act like so, then they will act like so.
Yes I suppose no one does get punished these days. Oh well, I like the dibbuns for what it is worth.
I absolutely LOOOVE Baby Bungo!!! He is super naughty!
Redwall has a miracle: the Dibbuns! Besides being cute and cuddly little guys, they also can be little terrors. Sometimes they get away with atrocious things with virtually no punishment at all. Yet there comes a mysterious moment never really reccorded in the books (with the possible exception of Horty, Springald and Fenna in Lomehedge) when these rascally, fibbing, mischevous little Dibbuns magically turn into responsible well-mannered honest beasts. Really, the sucess rate that Redwall has in raising its kids is astounding. The only child ever raised at Redwall that didn't turn out to be a perfectly good beast is Veil. (with the possible exception of Orkwill Prink) And the parents dont' even seem to take much of a role in raising the children, either. They are mostly raised by the badgermum and a few elders whose job is too care for the young. They don't even seem to sleep with their families, since there's a special dormitory for Dibbuns.
Arven, Rollo, Dumble, and countless other Dibbuns all grew from irresponsible babes to classic Redwallers--industrious, true, noble, polite, hospitable, and responsible. Many young creatures like Bragoon and Sarabando, Mattimeo, Horty & co, Samkin and Arula, and more had adventures in their younger seasons that forced them to grow up quickly; many more didn't, yet the result was nearly identical. They all turned out ideally.
Just my rant on Redwall's childrearing methods. ;D
Hmm. I always though that the reason the dibbuns are raised by the badgermum and a few elders was because they are either homeless or orphans taken in by Redwall. Because the few times when the parent is mentioned, they usually have a big role in raising their child. Example: Rollo's mother was killed by Slagar. Until then, however, she had a huge roll in caring for her child. Like how she was always there to scold him when he sung one of his atrocious songs, or she fed him at the banquet table the night of her death. It was actually her involvement with Rollo that kept her from being drugged, which led to her dying.
It is amazing! I like how you get to see the young ones grow up, but it does really seem like one day they are mischievous young ones, and the next they are responsible youth.
You know what I don't get?In the original redwall,when Shadow fell off the wall he broke his back.Yet when SPOILER ALERTin Taggerung,two dibbuns fell off the walls and barely got hurt.
^ Bigger they are, harder they fall, perhaps?
Anyway...dibbuns...never liked them much personally. Reminds me too much of kids in real life with parents that go "Be quiet" while the tyke runs around and continues to make noise. Gee, how about some action? Words obviously aren't going to fix the problem. Sometimes I see something similar with the dibbuns...words have no affect on a good majority of them. What's a parent to do it seems! ::)
so many parents dont even do anything nowadays,it seems to me that the dibbuns are mostly orthens they sometimes are very anoying but then again I love DAB!
You have to admire the dibbuns for their wanting to help.
QuoteFrom High Rhulain:Grumby the hogbabe pointed toward the main gate."Ho,us is goin' to 'elp Miz Tirrier to choppa wood. Don't worry,Skip,we keep a h'eye on 'em for youse"
Kids will be kids, eh? Just think of it this way, not to long ago you were that same annoying Dibbun. Even if you think you were not, you were. Everyone is annoying in his own way. Would you want it all the time to be:
"I don't wanna take ee baf!" cried the molebabe.
The mother grabbed the dibbun by the tail and spanked him. He let out a terrible cry.
"You rotten Mugler!" sais the mother as she spanked him again.
"I will helped you too!" the little mouse protested.
"No!" said the badgermum with the most frightening voice, "You can't help! You never do anything right!" She kept her hold on the babe as she spanked him three times on the bottom.
Would you rather the dibbuns be like robots, never have any fun, and are always being punished?
Well, I have to admit that if the books read like your examples, it would certainly be different...
The thing is, though, when has there ever been a real toddler that single-handedly foiled an attack on a castle? Never?
In the Redwall series, though, it happens just about all the time. I'm not saying that dibbuns shouldn't get to do anything, just that a few things -- like "the clueless dibbun saves the day after experienced, mature warriors fail" -- are pretty unrealistic, and don't personally appeal to me as much; they underrate both the main heroes and the villains.
As far as the dibbuns in Taggerung, if I remember right, didn't the dibbuns fall down into a blanket? That's a bit different than just falling off a wall; it's the difference between jumping from a burning building and jumping from a burning building into a fireman's safety net.
Well I don't remember there being a blanket.There was nobody looking after them after all.
I just remembered; the incident I had in mind was actually in Marlfox.
Maybe the walls have shrunk since Redwall? ;)
I think that Arven from Pearls of Lutra is. He's my secand favourite dibbun in the Redwall series (I think that he was the most out of control dibbun).
Dibbuns are pretty annoying sometimes, I admit.
But in The BellMaker mousebabe is like the best dibbun ever, he talks intelligently and all that. ;D
For the most part, I like the Dibbuns. They really are a lot like real kids, and better behaved than a lot of them today.
Anyone seen the animated movie Once upon a Forest? The settings and animals remind me a lot of the Dibbuns, and also the Abbey dwellers.
To get back on topic, I think it's funny how they were mischevious.
I love the dibbuns! My favorite thing about them was when they started DAB (Dibbuns Against Bedtime). I also love how you can barely understand the mole dibbuns.
Quote from: Rainshadow on June 11, 2012, 03:36:11 AM
I love the dibbuns! My favorite thing about them was when they started DAB (Dibbuns Against Bedtime). I also love how you can barely understand the mole dibbuns.
[/quote
The mole Dibbuns are the BEST. I love Bungo in the picture books most of all.
But the dibbuns were still annoying. You know that part in Triss where the two dibbuns go missing? Memm Flackery noticed that there were two empty smocks, but she thought they were spares. I can't believe that anyone can be that careless.
I disagree, I think the dibbuns are really cute
Yeah, they are, but sometimes they're not looked after very well, (see my last post here) so I don't blame them for being naughty.
Quote from: Rainshadow on June 11, 2012, 03:36:11 AM
I love the dibbuns! My favorite thing about them was when they started DAB (Dibbuns Against Bedtime). I also love how you can barely understand the mole dibbuns.
Mole Dibbuns have a normal mole accent, so do you have trouble understanding all moles or just the Dibbuns?
dibbuns are just crazy i love them they pop up and jsut add a great feature to the plot
That one dibbun in Triss who was demanding the pudden was pretty annoying.
Quote from: James Gryphon on October 12, 2011, 01:05:20 AM
Maybe the walls have shrunk since Redwall? ;)
I feel like the height of the walls is rather inconsistent throughout the series, though I'd be more inclined to say the position of where they fell came more into play. (Plus the respective weight of each beast)
Shadow fell off the wall onto rather hard-packed ground in the form of a road that was been used and cemented under countless seasons' use. The dibbuns fell onto relatively soft, lush soil and probably through a fair amount of foliage and old leaves too.
As for dibbuns and their level of annoyingness, I get more annoyed at the beasts who are supposed to be bringing them up. The dibbuns can't help the fact that nobody ever tells them off or disciplines them and, considering the circumstances, they're actually quite good. (I was going to say well behaved but that's a bit of a stretch)
Seriously, I think the Redwallers are more to blame than the dibbuns. If you're never given the slightest hint that stealing or lying or any other irritating things you do are wrong, how are you supposed to know that they are?
I despise Dwopple from Marlfox. He was a jerk to everyone and that gosh darn Deesum or whatever her name is, kept defending that jerk. I don't care if he is a dibbun! I still want him to be punished!
The Dibbuns from the first three books were okay to awesome.
Sam: He's a pretty smart and epic for a 1 1/2 season old! (He says in Mattimeo he was 1 1/2 seasons old when Cluny tried to conquer Redwall) Seriously, what baby would realistically think to drop a hornet's nest on your enemies?!
Ferdy and Coggs: Idiots, but then, they're babies. But then, you've gotta give them points for not giving in to Tsarmina!
Rollo: This baby can solve riddles! The only thing I didn't like was when once he was safe during the hostage trade, he started threatening the crows with his cider song (or his cider song in general, really)
Buuut, once we get to Mariel of Redwall, these babies start to get annoying.
Bagg, Run, and Grubb: They refuse to listen and actually cause problems before Mariel and Dandin leave. Then there's Grubb's annoying molespeech. Then, they have a moment where they manage to cut the ropes the rats are climbing up, which is awesome. But afterwards, they start exaggerating their feats, and the adults know it, yet just let them keep exaggerating! I seriously wanted to spank them!
Dumble: Oh my freakin' Vulpuz, this Dibbun was so annoying and 99% useless!
Dinjer: Spoiled brat, and thankfully, Amballa gave him the spanking he deserved.
Bungo (Martin the Warrior): The way he talks to his elders when Grumm tells him not stir the soup too fast and when one tries to stop him from dipping his pancake into his soup made me want to see him get a dang spanking!
I know hating on Bagg, Runn, and Grubb for exaggerating seems outta proportion, but I just hate it when kids do that. I don't why, I just do.
I haven't read the series in a good bit, but from what I remember, most of the time they were tolerable. Though I do remember several times it got very irritating
Quote from: Rainshadow on June 11, 2012, 03:36:11 AM
I love the dibbuns! My favorite thing about them was when they started DAB (Dibbuns Against Bedtime). I also love how you can barely understand the mole dibbuns.
Yeah, moles are already cute, but when they are babies :hearteyes: