Out of control dibbuns

[James Gryphon]

I'll admit it -- dibbuns annoy me.

Now, let me qualify that by saying that the ones in the first three books -- Silent Sam, Ferdy, Coggs, Spike, Posy, Tim and Tess, etc., from what I remember, are mostly pretty tame. They're obedient to their parents/elders/immediate guardians, have at least half a clue what's going on, and know when to keep quiet. I don't have any problem with them. If all the dibbuns in the series behaved kind of like them, we wouldn't have this topic.

From Mariel of Redwall on, though, it seems that these little villains are just incorrigible. They're allowed to get away with just about anything and everything. What's worse, if a responsible beast like Sister Cicely or someone tries to straighten them out, someone else, like the Father Abbot, will come along and encourage them to ignore whatever it is that they were told to do or not do. Although Arven isn't the most annoying of all of these characters, he stands out as still probably the best example of what they're like. He bothers Viola Bankvole and gets away with it -- leaving the blame to be pinned on Tansy instead. On several occasions, he's even a direct obstacle to the heroes in their quest to find the Pearls of Lutra, and they have to stop and try to straighten him out before they can do whatever it is they needed to do.

Furthermore, nobody ever bothers to watch the gates or do anything at all to make sure that the dibbuns are kept in their proper, safe places. I understand it probably isn't convenient to have a babysitter or someone specifically watching all of the dibbuns 24/7, but you'd think it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to at least child-proof the doors in and out of the abbey, and put up some locked doors or something to keep them from going up on the walls (since there is no good reason for them to be there). The heroes, of course, will tell the dibbuns, "don't do this or that", but it's really just a waste of breath since you know the dibbuns will go and do that very thing the moment nobody's standing there to stop them.

What are y'all's thoughts on these characters?

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

Now, let me qualify that by saying that the ones in the first three books -- Silent Sam, Ferdy, Coggs, Spike, Posy, Tim and Tess, etc.

What are y'all's thoughts on these characters?

They're from Redwall. xD

I mean really, I absolutely love the line of The Sable Quean.

Actually, Tim and Tess (to your stated standards, the most tame I'd say) weren't dibbuns. They were older than that, if I'm not mistaken.
But yeah, dibbuns are a favorite class of mine.

[James Gryphon]

Well, technically speaking, I'm not sure any of them are from Redwall. Sam was a woodlander, Ferdy and his siblings were all before the Abbey was ever built, and Tim and Tess were churchmice, as I recall.

I don't know, I just kind of like it when the dibbuns are in their proper place, and when the Redwallers don't make extremely questionable parenting decisions in the process of keeping them. I have no problem sympathizing with younger heroes, I'd just prefer for them to have a clue what they're doing and what's going on, like Tansy, or Craklyn, or Viola, or so on. The plot device of the silly, ignorant dibbuns inadvertently saving Redwall or causing disproportionate amounts of trouble for the villains despite not really understanding anything that's happening just doesn't strike as much of a chord with me. I guess it's fine if others like it, but it isn't my cup of tea.

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

You misunderstood my post. I meant "from Redwall" to apply to all dibbuns in general. If they're called a dibbun, then they're a Redwaller, as it is the Abbey name for young ones.
I wasn't referring to the ones you listed.

[Osu]

I think they're meant to sounds like regular old tots, human-wise. Generally, they're loud, constantly pushing the limits of what they can and can't do, argumentitive, loud... LOUD... that the dibbuns of Redwall appear to have some sense of goodness in them as well is what's interesting to me. They do errands for their elders and have chores, I think, because it's mentioned in Mattimeo that Matti has never had to lift a paw to work, unlike his peers.

As for watching the gates, the only time dibbuns escape as far as I can recall are when the adults are distracted with something else. They always pick up on missing dibbuns pretty quick and the entire abbey gets to searching, which would indicate to me that there aren't any ignorant parents in the building per se - just the obliging, old, doting kind. They always seem to grow into good abbey creatures, so it must not be that bad.

In short:

The heroes, of course, will tell the dibbuns, "don't do this or that", but it's really just a waste of breath since you know the dibbuns will go and do that very thing the moment nobody's standing there to stop them.

This describes human kids to a T. I agree they can get pretty darn annoying. XD I wouldn't say they're out of control, though.

And have I ever told you your posts are always so awesomely detailed and well thought out? Cos they totally are.

[Lily]

I agree with Osu, your posts are always full of food for thought, James.

The dibbuns don't really bother me. Their antics aren't my favourite part of the books, granted, but I don't hate them either. I always wondered one thing when reading about them though - where were their parents? They're always described as being in the care or the infirmary sister or a badgermum, but what were their parents doing? When they go missing, the whole Abbey goes searching for them but their parents are rarely mentioned.

Having said that, one young 'un that really did get on my nerves was Skittles from Lord Brocktree. I know he's not technically a dibbun because he wasn't from Redwall, but he displays a lot of the attributes James was talking about before. He gets away with anything with absolutely no punishment, and that did annoy me.

The heroes, of course, will tell the dibbuns, "don't do this or that", but it's really just a waste of breath since you know the dibbuns will go and do that very thing the moment nobody's standing there to stop them.

I just came back from "teaching English" to a bunch of 4-year-olds, and... yes.

[James Gryphon]

I always wondered one thing when reading about them though - where were their parents? They're always described as being in the care or the infirmary sister or a badgermum, but what were their parents doing?

I kinda got the impression that if their parentage wasn't specifically mentioned, they were probably orphaned some way or another; after all, in Outcast of Redwall, it seemed that the unusual thing about Veil wasn't that he was (presumed to be) an orphan, but that he was a ferret. It doesn't seem unlikely that this sort of thing is a common occurrence for the Abbey, especially since most of the residents of Redwall (after Redwall and Mattimeo) show no signs of being married to anyone.

I suppose it is to be expected that toddlers will be somewhat like that... the truth is that I'm kind of uncomfortable with real, human kids in the first place; they strike me as messy, and it's a little tricky for me to understand what they're saying sometimes, and they're so unpredictable; with all that in mind, I guess I'm really kind of prejudiced against the dibbuns here. Hopefully it's something that I'll grow out of eventually.

[Lily]

I suppose it is to be expected that toddlers will be somewhat like that... the truth is that I'm kind of uncomfortable with real, human kids in the first place; they strike me as messy, and it's a little tricky for me to understand what they're saying sometimes, and they're so unpredictable; with all that in mind, I guess I'm really kind of prejudiced against the dibbuns here. Hopefully it's something that I'll grow out of eventually.

My prejudice is the other way - I love hanging out with kids. I love the hilarious things they say, and I love that they're so carefree. If they like you they tell you, and if they don't they let you know some other not-so-subtle way. I enjoy the depictions of the dibbuns because they are almost exactly like how real children would be, if maybe a little wilder.

I suppose it makes sense that our real-life feelings towards kids affect the way we react to them in stories!

[Tiria Wildlough]

Those disobedient Dibbuns make me so MAAAAAAD! Specially Arven. He is allowed to get away unscathed after giving Viola Bankvole a nightmare, and he doesn't get punished as far as I can remember, after running off into Mossflower just to get some attention.
Things were better kept in line when there was a Badgermum or someone.

[Gonff]

I like the dibbuns, sometimes they are very funny. But, you would think there would be some quieter shy ones too just like in real life. (Ever been in preschool? The kids are almost always either rowdy or shy.)

I don't like it when the dibbuns do something bad and than get no punishment. That just teaches them that they can get away with anything.

Silent Sam, Ferdy, Coggs, Spike, Posy, Tim and Tess are some of my favorite dibbuns too. Although some of them might be older then the dibbuns in other books. I like that Silent Sam loves his mom and is protective of her. (like when she climbs up the abbey wall.) But, then again I don't know how old Sam is.

I agree that your posts, James, always have a lot to think about.

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

I would choose a good deal of the later dibbuns as my favorites, including members of various DAB crews.
An interesting thing with dibbuns are in war. They are restricted back to the Abbey, and sometimes the cellars even. Yet on numerous occasions they escape and deal the enemy a crushing blow. Such as rope-cutting on the eastern wall with the friar's knives.
More fascinating if not as triumphiant, was the bell tolling in Doomwyte. SPOILER: It accounted for the life of a raven, crushing it to death and giving the two dibbuns a reputation for a victory, which they took to heart a good deal. end spoiler.
In the Sable Quean, the dibbuns end up having to deal with young babes. They are much less independent, and tend to cry a good deal, very unlike the dibbuns/Guosim young ones there.

[Redwall Musician]

 I agree with what you say about the dibbuns being unpunished. But in real life, kids never get punished any more. Most of them have their parents doing whatever they want, and are spoiled rotten. Arven made Viola have a bad dream (I haven't read that book in a while, so forgive me if this is wrong). He should have been punished, but in the end didn't. That's alright by me. If Brian wanted the dibbuns to act like so, then they will act like so.  

I understand it probably isn't convenient to have a babysitter or someone specifically watching all of the dibbuns 24/7, but you'd think it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to at least child-proof the doors in and out of the abbey, and put up some locked doors or something to keep them from going up on the walls (since there is no good reason for them to be there).

Oh my! That made me laugh! Sorry, it did! Child-proof doors. Trust me it does NOT work. First of all: they didn't have the technology back then. Second: Kids can get out of any thing! All this new stuff they have does not work. Determined kids if they put there minds to something can get out of any lock. I happen to have first-class experience. Alarms: Failed. Locks: Failed.

I suppose it is to be expected that toddlers will be somewhat like that... the truth is that I'm kind of uncomfortable with real, human kids in the first place; they strike me as messy, and it's a little tricky for me to understand what they're saying sometimes, and they're so unpredictable; with all that in mind, I guess I'm really kind of prejudiced against the dibbuns here. Hopefully it's something that I'll grow out of eventually.

Kids, especially 2-5 year olds are hard to understand. I love them so much. They are cute. Back too topic, kids don't understand. I know an older kid who doesn't understand things. It is the way of life. But I know some who are really smart. So maybe Tess, Tim, and all the other ones mentioned are just really smart.

Sorry for the long post.

[daskar666]

I'll admit it -- dibbuns annoy me.

Now, let me qualify that by saying that the ones in the first three books -- Silent Sam, Ferdy, Coggs, Spike, Posy, Tim and Tess, etc., from what I remember, are mostly pretty tame. They're obedient to their parents/elders/immediate guardians, have at least half a clue what's going on, and know when to keep quiet. I don't have any problem with them. If all the dibbuns in the series behaved kind of like them, we wouldn't have this topic.

From Mariel of Redwall on, though, it seems that these little villains are just incorrigible. They're allowed to get away with just about anything and everything. What's worse, if a responsible beast like Sister Cicely or someone tries to straighten them out, someone else, like the Father Abbot, will come along and encourage them to ignore whatever it is that they were told to do or not do. Although Arven isn't the most annoying of all of these characters, he stands out as still probably the best example of what they're like. He bothers Viola Bankvole and gets away with it -- leaving the blame to be pinned on Tansy instead. On several occasions, he's even a direct obstacle to the heroes in their quest to find the Pearls of Lutra, and they have to stop and try to straighten him out before they can do whatever it is they needed to do.

I've had nearly identical thoughts yesterday, and I agree 100%. It seems like with the term Dibbun, the dibbun stereotype was introduced in the series, and became one of the series' weakest points (for me at least.

[daskar666]

You misunderstood my post. I meant "from Redwall" to apply to all dibbuns in general. If they're called a dibbun, then they're a Redwaller, as it is the Abbey name for young ones.
I wasn't referring to the ones you listed.

Sorry for double-posting but I remember non-Redwallers being referred to as dibbuns in some of the later books.
And let's face it, after Mattimeo, the books don't discriminate based on origin, they only discriminate based on age. Dwopple, for example, was part of Florian's troupe but acted like the typical Redwall dibbun. It's redundant and realistically inaccurate, not to mention that it can be, ironically, a bit insulting to the target readers of the Redwall series

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

Insulting? No, it's not. Maybe for the odd one of a million, but no, it's never been so. Look around the ROC, suppose anyone's insulted by dibbuns?

And it seems my posts need to be less vague. You misunderstood what I said.
The line "I meant "from Redwall" to apply to all dibbuns in general." was stating the reference to The Sable Quean and was an independent line.
The following line was operating on a separate basis, and was identifying the meaning of dibbun. Though, as you said, the term was used for more than just Redwallers.