Yup...another Veil topic. This time, I'd like to look at Veil's personality. It is said that a person is a product of the environment in which they were raised and grew up in. A person is also shaped by the environment around them as they make decisions about their lives. As such, if we apply both theories of how the environment affects the growth of an individual, then Veil as a character is flawed, given his story in Outcast of Redwall.
Mr. Jacques has said that the "good beasts will always be good, and the baddies will always be bad". At least that is true until he created Veil Sixclaw--a character who tests this theory of Redwall speciesism. Veil was found as a babe outside of Redwall and reared by the good folk of the abbey. We can conclude through the story, that Veil has grown from a ferretbabe to a young adult, probably of the age of Matthias when he was introduced in Redwall. All those seasons being raised by beasts of good nature, should in theory have rubbed off on Veil because that is the way of the abbey. Veil did not see any alternative behaviors. Yes, as a dibbun he may have been naughty (as all dibbuns are from time to time), but dibbuns mature through learning because the environment offers them no other option. It is the way of the abbey. With no alternative behaviors to witness in the abbey, why is it then that Veil is so evil? "Baddies will always be baddies" doesn't provide much insight when behaviorists say otherwise given the circumstances that Veil has grown up in. He should be good because he had no opportunity to learn any other ways from the "baddies" of the Redwall universe.
Mr. Jacques said "the jury is out" on whether Veil dies a goodbeas, saving Bryony and never gave a direct explanation on which it was meant to be. I firmly say Veil dies a goodbeast, showing that despite the bad behavior, the environment in which he was raised does play an effect on the ending. Had Veil not learned the mannerisms of the abbey, he wouldn't have cared about Bryony and her safety. So it takes the whole novel for the good to shine through, that honestly should have always been present.
Veil is a tough cookie to crack on why the character was written the way he was. It also makes him one of the most interesting characters in the entire series. :)
Thoughts?
I agree
Yeah, he was almost two faceted.
Well it was clear he was alot like his fathr but i belive the only reason he saved Bryony is because his mother appeared to be kind before she died, but Veil was definately how I imagine Swarrt as a babe but slightly different because of the different places where they were brought up.
Too bad Veil didn't live so he could show he had turned good to all of those who think he was still evil BECAUSE he pushed Bryony..... How does that NOT prove he had a good heart in him in the end!!!??? ?? ?
^ There'd be a good ferret within Redwall.....that can't happen. The Redwall mice, squirrels, otters, and badgers would not have it so. ;) [/sarcasm]
I would be willing to bet if you ask most Redwall fans about Veil, they would be in agreement that Veil died a good beast. It still doesn't explain how I said in my first post that Veil wasn't "good" from the start given that is the only environment he'd have known. Where did he pick up on the bad traits while living in the abbey walls? ::)
bad genetic material, i guess? same reason taggerung wasn't a vermin. apples never fall far from the tree, as they say.
Veil had been exsposed to evil when he was VERY young, that's when a person (or creature) is MOST impressianable
That is a good point. If babies are not socialized properly or treated well this can affect them later in life. Although we can't say for sure whether Bluefen was a good mother or not, we simply don't know.
She died, remember? Swart had some sway over how Veil grew up.
I know this has nothing to do with the discussion, but I really love the t.v show Once Upon a Time on ABC, because I like that both that and Redwall always have me asking questions. I like it when writers of media make you really think deeper about what's going on with the characters, it makes it more interesting.
Shouldn't that be a discusion about the T.V series?
What do you mean ???
Quote from: Redwallfan7 on May 01, 2012, 03:01:15 AM
I know this has nothing to do with the discussion, but I really love the t.v show Once Upon a Time on ABC, because I like that both that and Redwall always have me asking questions. I like it when writers of media make you really think deeper about what's going on with the characters, it makes it more interesting.
That has absolutely NOTHING to do with this conversation.
Yeah I know that's why I said that same thing in the start >:(
But you shouldn't have POSTED it in the first place! It should be in one of the talks about the T.V. series, or if there isn't one, make a topic about there.
Oh... okay. Sorry
Time to get back on topic, yo. But more importantly, let's remember to be courteous to each other at all times in all conversations, and remember to leave the moderating to the moderators. ;)
I don't believe I ever put my two cents in on this conversation, but since I'm here... My views on Veil are fairly black and white. I think he was more lazy and self-centered than anything, which would account for his apparent lapse of "goodness" when he jumped in front of Bryony. I see Veil as an inherent bad guy simply because he did nothing but play the antagonist throughout the story with one obvious exception... and one act of selflessness does not a goodbeast make. All this despite the kindness shown him while growing up. If he never found it in himself to turn around, apologize, and live as a good creature, perhaps the ability to do so was never a personality trait to begin with. As somebody else already mentioned, the apple never falls far from the tree...
Osu, over and out! 8)
I don't believe in the theory 'the apple never falls far from the tree'. If you're taught something from an early age, that's what you'll learn.
I think Veil was bad because everybeast was suspicious of him. They seemed to expect him to be bad, so he was.
So why would Jaques go through all the trouble of making a book about a vermin that grew up in Redwall and then died if he DIDN'T change? That would be such a waste, I didn't even enjoy that book.
The expression "the apple never falls far from the tree" is often used when the "apple" lives within range of the "tree" and therefore picks up on all their mannerisms, good traits, bad traits, and everything else in between. If Veil was the apple, he was as far from the tree as Antarctica is from Asia. ;) There's no way the fact he was born a vermin species should have mattered if he grew up around goodbeasts.
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on May 05, 2012, 11:58:54 AM
I don't believe in the theory 'the apple never falls far from the tree'. If you're taught something from an early age, that's what you'll learn.
I think Veil was bad because everybeast was suspicious of him. They seemed to expect him to be bad, so he was.
I would classify Viel as a "grey" character, an opportunist. much like ramosco in the pearls of lutra. she helped the Abbott out of circumstance. i don't know if veil blocked the shot from his father to save broney or out of spite for the father that never loved him?
Think of it this way: You might really dislike your parent, but do you really want them dead?
It's almost 1am as I type this, so I apologize ahead of time for any weird grammar or typos, haha~ :D
Quote from: Lutra on May 05, 2012, 08:42:07 PM
The expression "the apple never falls far from the tree" is often used when the "apple" lives within range of the "tree" and therefore picks up on all their mannerisms, good traits, bad traits, and everything else in between [...] There's no way the fact he was born a vermin species should have mattered if he grew up around goodbeasts.
And yet he displays more of Swartt's traits than Bryony's, or any other abbeybeast. As you stated in the OP, this is inconsistent with what we'd expect from a child raised in a loving environment. Perhaps Veil and Swartt share a personality disorder...
For the record, I may have indeed misused the saying; I'm actually not very familiar with it. ^^
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on May 05, 2012, 11:58:54 AM
I think Veil was bad because everybeast was suspicious of him. They seemed to expect him to be bad, so he was.
Good point, but I disagree with this in that I think very few of the abbeybeasts would have shown Veil any open hostility based solely on his species. Or at least, I don't think they would have prior to the advent of his stealing habits. As far as I can recall, the Friar only condemned Veil based on his history of bad choices, nothing else. Correct me if I'm wrong, been a while since I read the book...
You bring up another good point with not wanting to kill a parent you dislike, though; I actually didn't consider that. On the other hand, he
did trap Bryony and Togget in a cave... haha. Such an enigma, our Veil.
I'm inclined to think Veil didn't jump in front of Bryony out of any affection for her, but I can't say he didn't, either. Whatever Veil's reason for saving Bryony, it doesn't change my opinion of his character, so I'll nose outta this one. ;)
Quote from: Osu on May 06, 2012, 08:09:00 AM
I'm inclined to think Veil didn't jump in front of Bryony out of any affection for her, but I can't say he didn't, either. Whatever Veil's reason for saving Bryony, it doesn't change my opinion of his character, so I'll nose outta this one. ;)
Well i belive Veil did redeem himself as he did seem rather sorry to Bryony, but somehow I think he know he was a badbeast.
I was slightly shocked how Bryony didn't say to the Abess when they met each how Veil saved her (I haven't read the book for abit so I'm not certain all of this is true.)
So I can conclude that he's more to the good side. Any other vermin in the series was never heroic like that. Badrang, Slagar, Tsarmina, and Cluny never saved anyone but their own skins.
Quote from: Redwallfan7 on May 06, 2012, 10:24:37 PM
So I can conclude that he's more to the good side. Any other vermin in the series was never heroic like that. Badrang, Slagar, Tsarmina, and Cluny never saved anyone but their own skins.
That is correct, Veil as most would see it, died as a goodbeast for saving Bryony.
QuoteI was slightly shocked how Bryony didn't say to the Abess when they met each how Veil saved her (I haven't read the book for abit so I'm not certain all of this is true.)
It is never directly said, though Bryony hints at the fact he had been good, and then done a lot of bad things. She became kind of wishy-washy on the whole thing at the end. That's partially why Mr. Jacques himself has never gave a direct answer as to whether Veil was inherently good or bad. I still think he's good, given all the circumstantial evidence.
Amen, Ditto, I agree.
He was a vermin that fought the status quo.
It is interesting. I look at it either one of two ways-either Veil truly was trying to save Bryony because he cared about her or he was trying to antagonize his father and didn't realize Swartt threw the spear. He and his dad didn't get along and Veil seemed to take great pleasure in antagonizing him by disagreeing with him on almost everything. He may have sprung to Byony's defense to antagonize Swartt and didn't realize it would cost him his life. Then again, he could have truly cared for Byony and tried to save her. Either way, I don't think Veil realized that he was going to die. If he had, I don't think he would have done it, for whatever reason.
Earlier in the book, when Veil was a baby, it described him as having sly eyes that darted everywhere, never missing an opportunity for his next meal. Veil seemed to me to be sort of an opportunist, the sort of personality that always tries to make sure that the situation turns out to their advantage. He just seemed naturally selfish, which would account for some of his behavior, and the suspicous treatment he would have received at the Abbey as a youngster wouldn't have helped any.
I personally believe that Veil had the potential to be a good vermin, however because of the unfortunately biased views of the Redwallers it turned him bad. You get called bad so many times you start to believe it, and then you start to act it.
I do believe Veil died a goodbeast, and he's one of my favorite characters because of it.
Revive!
Maybe he did but I don't think so
Well, whatever the reason he jumped in front of Byrony when he had done such bad things, I still blame the author, he just had to drag us through this Veil fiasco ;) ::) ;D (btw that was sarcasm just in case someone takes it the wrong way)
Yeah, I think since he had grown up with Bryony he had more of a connection with her than his real parent. Which put loyalty to her over loyalty to his abandoning father.
True