Poll
Question:
is Mariel or Rose (A.K.A LaterRose) better???
Option 1: Mariel
votes: 11
Option 2: LaterRose
votes: 13
I like Mariel all though I did enjoy reading about Rose but Mariel takes it for me :-*
I voted for LaterRose. And I'm also the first one to vote for her.
I voted for LateRose
Laterose.
Mariel. I didn't like Laterose because she was just too wimpy :P
Quote from: Romsca on March 30, 2013, 08:15:17 PM
Mariel. I didn't like Laterose because she was just too wimpy :P
Laterose wasn't wimpy! She was pretty heroic!
T=She just wasn't a warrior.
Quote from: Tam and Martin on March 30, 2013, 09:47:57 PM
T=She just wasn't a warrior.
But she wasn't wimpy, either!
Yes she wasn't wimpy and, as I said, she wasn't a warrior.
Mariel was just too hot-headed for my liking.
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 30, 2013, 09:56:17 PM
Mariel was just too hot-headed for my liking.
Same here.
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on March 31, 2013, 02:00:56 AM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 30, 2013, 09:56:17 PM
Mariel was just too hot-headed for my liking.
Same here.
I know! You can't be a good warrior if you can't control your temper.
Mariel wasn't to hotheaded in
Bellmaker and LaterRose was not wimpy
Spoiler
She died fighting Badrang for fates sake :'(
Late Rose by far, she's a character that's actually worth liking, Mariel was very pushy, bossy, what ever you want to call it, I hated her.
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 31, 2013, 07:11:22 PM
Late Rose by far, she's a character that's actually worth liking, Mariel was very pushy, bossy, what ever you want to call it, I hated her.
Same here!
I didn't hate her, she just wasn't may favorite.
#nook
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 31, 2013, 07:11:22 PM
Late Rose by far, she's a character that's actually worth liking, Mariel was very pushy, bossy, what ever you want to call it, I hated her.
Same here! I just disliked Laterose even more
Quote from: Romsca on March 31, 2013, 09:30:53 PM
#nook
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 31, 2013, 07:11:22 PM
Late Rose by far, she's a character that's actually worth liking, Mariel was very pushy, bossy, what ever you want to call it, I hated her.
Same here! I just hated Late Rose even more
What was wrong with Latrose?
#nook
She just wasn't my favorite :P
I liked them both, but I don't think they are really comparable. Both were heroes, but they were different kinds. Rose was a hero emotionally. She was compassionate, brave, and ready to go to great lengths to help those she loved. The ideal warriors wife.
Mariel had a temper, tenacity, and the ability to whack seagulls with a rope. She was more of an "action hero" so to speak. I loved the part where she beaned the poor little .... hedgehog? I forget. And felt terrible about it.
Now that I have thought about it, I think I prefer Laterose, though I find Mariel intensely amusing.
On a side note, is it really necessary to use a word as strong as "hate"? I mean, even if you absolutely despise the characters, expressing it that way is bound to upset someone who likes them, and then there would be trouble. Not trying to mini-mod here, just saying...
Quote from: WoodenSpoon on March 31, 2013, 10:03:34 PM
I liked them both, but I don't think they are really comparable. Both were heroes, but they were different kinds. Rose was a hero emotionally. She was compassionate, brave, and ready to go to great lengths to help those she loved. The ideal warriors wife.
Mariel had a temper, tenacity, and the ability to whack seagulls with a rope. She was more of an "action hero" so to speak. I loved the part where she beaned the poor little .... hedgehog? I forget. And felt terrible about it.
Comparing them, I think I prefer Laterose, though I find Mariel intensely amusing.
On a side note, is it really necessary to use a word as strong as "hate"? I mean, even if you absolutely despise the characters, expressing it that way is bound to upset someone who likes them, and then there would be trouble. Not trying to mini-mod here, just saying...
That's just what I felt about both Laterose and Mariel.
After having talked to so many Rose haters, it's hard to find sympathy for another character when you're busy defending your own, and I REALLY dislike Mariel.... She was mean, you have to admit that! It drove me up the wall and I couldn't help but feel bad for Dandin.
Not trying to be rude to anyone here, just how I feel about Mariel.
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 31, 2013, 11:57:56 PM
After having talked to so many Rose haters, it's hard to find sympathy for another character when you're busy defending your own, and I REALLY dislike Mariel.... She was mean, you have to admit that! It drove me up the wall and I couldn't help but feel bad for Dandin.
Not trying to be rude to anyone here, just how I feel about Mariel.
So do's that mean that Rose has your vote?
I did like the scene in the bellmaker where they throw the tiles at the vermin....But in truth I don't have a larg dislike for any character, vermin or not.
lol, OF COURSE! :D I love Rose, she's awesome. :)
Tough call. Not really two characters you can really compare. Rose and Mariel were COMPLETELY different types and as such it is not a fair comparison.
Rose, aka "Laterose" (you may want to change "LaterRose" as it's not the correct spelling), is a strong silent type. She is brave when she has to be, but does not go looking for trouble. She is an anchor to Martin who at this point in his life is pretty reckless. She is kind and compassionate, but not afraid to stare injustice in the eye.
Mariel on the other hand (paw?) is a loud hero. She will charge headlong into danger without a second glance backwards to see who is following her. She is courageous and forthright, but tedious in her quick temper. Though loyal to her friends, she is careless with feelings and very biased in her opinions (meaning pretty much everything is black and white with her).
Personally, I think Rose had better overall characterization and a more concise personage. I know Jacques was criticized for making her, as some called her, "a damsel in fatal distress" (though she wasn't in my mind, but a tragic figure), so I think he was trying to portray a stronger female role in Mariel. There were also reviews comparing Mariel to Martin, and Dandin to Rose, but meh, I dunno. That's a different topic for a different time.
I just thought that Mariel was a character forced on you, where Rose was one you grew to love with the story. So there it is. A very long winded blurb that could have just been four words: I VOTE FOR ROSE.
Quote from: Free Thought on April 01, 2013, 02:36:47 AM
Tough call. Not really two characters you can really compare. Rose and Mariel were COMPLETELY different types and as such it is not a fair comparison.
Rose, aka "Laterose" (you may want to change "LaterRose" as it's not the correct spelling), is a strong silent type. She is brave when she has to be, but does not go looking for trouble. She is an anchor to Martin who at this point in his life is pretty reckless. She is kind and compassionate, but not afraid to stare injustice in the eye.
Mariel on the other hand (paw?) is a loud hero. She will charge headlong into danger without a second glance backwards to see who is following her. She is courageous and forthright, but tedious in her quick temper. Though loyal to her friends, she is careless with feelings and very biased in her opinions (meaning pretty much everything is black and white with her).
Personally, I think Rose had better overall characterization and a more concise personage. I know Jacques was criticized for making her, as some called her, "a damsel in fatal distress" (though she wasn't in my mind, but a tragic figure), so I think he was trying to portray a stronger female role in Mariel. There were also reviews comparing Mariel to Martin, and Dandin to Rose, but meh, I dunno. That's a different topic for a different time.
I just thought that Mariel was a character forced on you, where Rose was one you grew to love with the story. So there it is. A very long winded blurb that could have just been four words: I VOTE FOR ROSE.
I agree. Though I never really felt Rose was unnecessary. Maybe a little perfect, but not at all helpless. She and Grumm, after all, made Martin and co.'s escape possible.
Though I may have gotten tired of the sweet-voiced little Miss Perfection, by the end I was so attached I still wound up in tears. Even on the who-knows-how-many re-reads.
Martin the Warrior is, I think, my favorite book in the series. I liked how realistically the characters acted, reacted, and grew through the hardship/experiences. It was the one time I didn't catch myself criticizing some aspect of the story and just enjoyed it.
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 31, 2013, 09:00:19 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 31, 2013, 07:11:22 PM
Late Rose by far, she's a character that's actually worth liking, Mariel was very pushy, bossy, what ever you want to call it, I hated her.
Same here!
she was only like that when she was Storm Gullwacker 8)
Quote from: rachel25 on April 03, 2013, 03:50:34 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 31, 2013, 09:00:19 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 31, 2013, 07:11:22 PM
Late Rose by far, she's a character that's actually worth liking, Mariel was very pushy, bossy, what ever you want to call it, I hated her.
Same here!
she was only like that when she was Storm Gullwacker 8)
NO SHE WASN'T! She was ALWAYS bossy and rude, you ever think about how terribly she treated her traveling companions? Every thing in the two books eventually centered around her. People are constantly accusing Rose of being a Mary Sue. Anyone ever stop to think about Mariel? THERE'S a Mary Sue for you.
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 03, 2013, 04:32:59 PM
Quote from: rachel25 on April 03, 2013, 03:50:34 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 31, 2013, 09:00:19 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 31, 2013, 07:11:22 PM
Late Rose by far, she's a character that's actually worth liking, Mariel was very pushy, bossy, what ever you want to call it, I hated her.
Same here!
she was only like that when she was Storm Gullwacker 8)
NO SHE WASN'T! She was ALWAYS bossy and rude, you ever think about how terribly she treated her traveling companions? Every thing in the two books eventually centered around her. People are constantly accusing Rose of being a Mary Sue. Anyone ever stop to think about Mariel? THERE'S a Mary Sue for you.
How can somebody think that Rose was like Mary Sue!?
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on April 03, 2013, 08:19:12 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 03, 2013, 04:32:59 PM
Quote from: rachel25 on April 03, 2013, 03:50:34 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 31, 2013, 09:00:19 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 31, 2013, 07:11:22 PM
Late Rose by far, she's a character that's actually worth liking, Mariel was very pushy, bossy, what ever you want to call it, I hated her.
Same here!
she was only like that when she was Storm Gullwacker 8)
NO SHE WASN'T! She was ALWAYS bossy and rude, you ever think about how terribly she treated her traveling companions? Every thing in the two books eventually centered around her. People are constantly accusing Rose of being a Mary Sue. Anyone ever stop to think about Mariel? THERE'S a Mary Sue for you.
How can somebody think that Rose was like Mary Sue!?
Wondered that myself! Common theory states she stinkin' died! How is some beast who got killed by a wall a Mary Sue? (Before you ask, I don't believe in her death).
From tvtropes:
QuoteThe prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.
Remember a Mary Sue centers around character traits. Rose clearly had no trait to offset the fact she was "practically perfect in every way" (as Mary Poppins would put it). If there was one, it wasn't obvious. I'd have to read up on Mariel again to understand her better, but memory tells me she would not be defined as a Mary Sue.
Why these two characters are being compared is beyond me as they're nothing alike.
#nook
It's as ridiculous as comparing Bluefen (quiet and shy) and Romsca (AWESOMENES!!!). They're simply complete opposites
Well, not ridiculous as much as an apples to oranges comparison. Find another Mary Sue character in Redwall and then you can make actual arguments and debates with some weight to back them up. :) You cannot compare these two fairly.
#nook
Triss is a Mary Sue, so are the badger lords since they're "invincible"
Who's Mary Sue?
#nook
Mary Sue is not a person! A Mary Sue is a character that is practically like a perfect superhero; they are without any flaws, except maybe likeable ones. They happen to possess every single stinking skill you can name and they never get hurt
Quote from: Romsca on April 04, 2013, 06:32:11 PM
#nook
Mary Sue is not a person! A Mary Sue is a character that is practically like a perfect superhero; they are without any flaws, except maybe likeable ones. They happen to possess every single stinking skill you can name and they never get hurt
In that case, nether Rose nor Mariel were Mary Sue's.... But I still really don't like Mariel!
A Mary Sue is essentially an underdeveloped character. They are usually made by people who are new to writing, particularly fan-fiction. They are unlikable mainly because the writer does not know how to portray personality on paper yet. Superpowers and perfection are symptoms, but I know of basically perfect characters that were still likable.
It is usually the writers current skill, rather then the traits she gave the character, that make or break a Mary Sue. Newbie writers are usually very sensitive about making their heroines ((or heroes, yes I am over generalizing here, but most are female)) fail or be in the wrong. They need to learn how to be tougher on them. If we saw a character with practically no personality flaws have to struggle for her victory, make mistakes, and have sincerely good people dislike her for legitimate reasons, I for one would not label her a Mary Sue.
Ahem... sorry. You got the brunt of my essay mode there. According to my defination, neither Rose nor Mariel are Mary-Sues. I mean, I can't think of any good people who disliked them (in book anyway), but how many Redwall goodies dislike each other? On a certain level, most of the heroes have some Sue-ism in them. That's how it is in a basically black and white universe. Still, Mr. Jacques does his job well, and while some of you may feel differently, I never caught myself saying, "Ugh, Rose is soooo perfect! Why do we have to have her stuffed in our faces all the time?", or even, "Mariel succeeds at EVERYTHING! It's ridiculous!" Let me tell you, a real Mary Sue never had to fight tooth and claw to get out of taking a bath. And, if there is such a thing, she was in the right.
On a side note, wouldn't it make more sense to compare Cornflower and Rose?
Not really. (the different comparison part)
I always thought that Columbine and Rose made good comparison as they both had to ... "rein in" their love interests from time to time, but more interestingly Abbess Germaine and Rose. I can only imagine if Rose had lived to grow old she too would be very much like Redwall's first Mother Abbess. Which leads to little wonder Martin got along so well with the ol' mouse. Anyways, that's just my two cents into it anyway. ;)
Yeah I know I could of chosen all sorts of different creatures but I chose Mariel And LaterRose :P But I prefer Mariel to Rose ::) :-*
I've always thought Rose was better. ;D
Mariel is way better.
I'm with Vilu Daskar I think Mariel was a better character ;D
Quote from: Vilu Daskar on April 13, 2013, 12:00:01 AM
Mariel is way better.
On what plane of thinking, might I ask.
I don't really think that you can compare the two characters fairly since they are not even remotely the same sort. Rose was an anchor and a voice of reason for a young and reckless warrior *ahem-Martin* whereas Mariel is a rash "warrior" bent on revenge.
I think the question should not be who is better, but rather which type of female character appeals to you- quiet bravery (Rose) or unbridled courage (Mariel). But hey, this is not my topic... :P
Quote from: Free Thought on April 15, 2013, 11:35:22 AM
I don't really think that you can compare the two characters fairly since they are not even remotely the same sort. Rose was an anchor and a voice of reason for a young and reckless warrior *ahem-Martin* whereas Mariel is a rash "warrior" bent on revenge.
I think the question should not be who is better, but rather which type of female character appeals to you- quiet bravery (Rose) or unbridled courage (Mariel). But hey, this is not my topic... :P
I agree, I liked rose mainly because of Martin but I loved Mariel's determination.
Quote from: Martin the warrior on April 16, 2013, 02:47:03 PM
Quote from: Free Thought on April 15, 2013, 11:35:22 AM
I don't really think that you can compare the two characters fairly since they are not even remotely the same sort. Rose was an anchor and a voice of reason for a young and reckless warrior *ahem-Martin* whereas Mariel is a rash "warrior" bent on revenge.
I think the question should not be who is better, but rather which type of female character appeals to you- quiet bravery (Rose) or unbridled courage (Mariel). But hey, this is not my topic... :P
I agree, I liked rose mainly because of Martin but I loved Mariel's determination.
THATS what i liked about her too ;)
Mariel was more of the warrior type, though LateRose was more heroic, dying while trying to fight off Badrang in the Battle of Marshank. Though I like both characters greatly, I would have to go with lateRose, as Mariel could be a tad hotheaded at times.
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 14, 2013, 02:48:02 PM
Quote from: Vilu Daskar on April 13, 2013, 12:00:01 AM
Mariel is way better.
On what plane of thinking, might I ask.
She was more of a fighter, I like her style better than the gentle Laterose (and I really LIKE Laterose, so this was a tough choice.) Mariel was just more adventurous and spontaneous and hot-headed and rash and all those awesome character traits ;D ;D
Quote from: CrazyPug37 on April 21, 2013, 06:07:26 PM
Mariel was more of the warrior type, though LateRose was more heroic, dying while trying to fight off Badrang in the Battle of Marshank. Though I like both characters greatly, I would have to go with lateRose, as Mariel could be a tad hotheaded at times.
That is the best thing about Mariel! I Love Mariel!
I'm rereading Mariel of Redwall at the moment and I love how
BJ made her such a fighter ;D
come and join us ;D (http://redwallabbey.com/forum/index.php?topic=3789.0)
I like them both equally. Mariel is more of the tough, fighter type and Rose is more Mary-Sueish. For this reason I like Mariel first.
Rose, for some reason.
Quote from: Redwallfan7 on May 13, 2013, 12:30:52 AM
I like them both equally. Mariel is more of the tough, fighter type and Rose is more Mary-Sueish. For this reason I like Mariel first.
Rose wasn't Mary-Sueish! She wasn't even close to being Mary-Sueish!
Rose was not Mary sueish at all
Spoiler
She died for fates sake
Here's a youtube video a found involving Rose
Mariel!!!!
Quote
Here's a youtube video a found involving Rose
It was part of the TV series. That was also the part that made me cry :'( Whenever I saw that part, I felt a heavy weight on my soul, the type that Martin would have certainly felt. That's one of the reasons why the 3rd Redwall Season is sooo special to me: it did a very, VERY good job of capturing Rose's death as it was meant to be.
Quote from: Captain Tammo on May 17, 2013, 08:02:46 PM
Mariel!!!!
Reasons?