I was just wondering, because I had a really weird dream about it.
For starters, Martin and Rose would marry, they would live in Noonvale, Martin would never travel to Mossflower and the whole continuation of the series would be ruined.
Also, if your interested, The Lady Shael wrote an excellent fanfic on the topic which you can find here (http://redwallabbey.com/forum/index.php?topic=89.0).
If they had married, they might have gone to the origins of Redwall and started building a hom that eventuallly turned into the Abbey.
Be CREATIVE, Daniel!
If they had married, Mossflower and the CORIM would have been done for.
Maybe not. Who knows about Brian Jacues' imagination? Only Brian Jacques.
I would think Rose would travel with Martin, I can't see him settling down at noonvale.
Exactly, Melody. I am SO glad you brought that up!
Itjust didn't SOUND like Martin to me.
well if martin and rose had gone then wouldnt some others followed and maybe they couldve gone back to noonvale bringing help making mossflower a short book
Or they would've wandered into mossflower next... and then helped Corim... and then defeated Tsarmina... and then Rose would be on the tapestry also!
I think they would have wandered around. Eventually, Martin's sword would have rusted and broke the next time he tried to kill a vermin with it, and he'd hear rumors about a badger being the beast to fix it. He'd meet Boar, who would fix his sword and make it the indescructable blade we know, and they'd travel south, wantint got get away from the oceans and cold weather. Then Martin and Rose would've met up with Gonff as he tried to steal their dinner, and, after threatening him at swordpoint for a bit, Martin would hear the story about the Corim and Tsarmina, and he'd help. Rose would become best friends with Columbine, and the two of them woud've grumbled about Gonff and Martin's dangerous exploits.
That's only what I think would happen, though. And maybe Martin and Rose would end up having a child.
but when martin and rose would wander around mossflower wouldnt they would be captured by korim then how would they escape or something different
Same as mossflower but they would have kids?
I disagree. It seemed to me that Martin intended to settle down in Noonvale with Rose, until she died. And in the end he still settled down, just in Mossflower, so it's not like he never would have stayed someplace. I think he would have stayed in Noonvale.
Quote from: Bragoon on January 29, 2012, 01:14:00 AM
I disagree. It seemed to me that Martin intended to settle down in Noonvale with Rose, until she died. And in the end he still settled down, just in Mossflower, so it's not like he never would have stayed someplace. I think he would have stayed in Noonvale.
Well, we all have our own opinion.
Mine is that Martin's personality is like that of Bragooon and Saro's: He is a wandering awrrior.
The issue I take with that is that he never displayed any signs of simply wandering. He traveled straight South until he hit Mossflower, then he stayed there. He was at home with his clan until he was captured by Badrang, then he was going to settle down with Rose until she was killed, then he did settle down in Mossflower, barring the one time when he went to find out about what happened to his father. He did a lot of travelling, but never just aimless wandering. He always had a purpose, either looking for a new home to start a new life, or seeking answers about his father.
Gee I don't know. Obviously he would've gotten married to Rose. Matthias would not be born and Redwall would not exist. That means, that Martin would have to name his son Matthias, or a duaghter Cornflower or something.
Why wouldn't Matthias be born? Matthias wasn't directly descended from Martin, since Martin had no children. Whether Matthias is distantly related to Martin or not, Matthias birth wouldn't be affected by Martin's marriage, unless you want to get into the infinitely complicated theories of "Well if Martin hadn't come, maybe Matthias' parents wouldn't have met" or whatever.
well I don't know, the first book was redwall, so Brian Jaques had a plan most likely from the beginnig
Mossflower would have never been saved from the clutches of Tsarmina. Martin traveled to Mossflower because he couldn't face Rose's parents after her death. He had vowed to protect her, but she ended up dead. The failure caused him to travel, and if he had not traveled, Mossflower would never have been saved, and Redwall Abbey probably would have never been built. In a sense, it's a blessing that Rose had died, but it's terrible for Martin. He did find happiness after all his sorrow, but it's excruciating to lose someone you love like that.
Yeah. I wish if Rose did live they both traveled south.
Still think it was a BIG mistake, he could have gone travleing if she had lived, and then their would be good reason for Matthias to be related to Martin.
In a way, Rose had to die, because she wasn't mentioned in Mossflower, which was written before MTW.
Who says she has to be? :o :o :o :o There are ways around that too!
He's right yknow.
Yeah, there are, but not realistic ones.
She could have traveled south with Martin, but something tells me that they probably wouldn't do that. They probably would have gotten married and settled down in Noonvale. Remember that Martin wasn't as much of a warrior as he was in Mossflower or The Legend of Luke, and it would have been easier for him to settle down and lead a peaceful life.
Or maybe the Corim could have sent somebeast to find help, like in Lady Shael's fanfic, but there's a strong chance that this creature would go somewhere else, and not in the direction of Noonvale.
I can't think of any more options. If you can, tell me. :D
OR! Rose could have APPEARED to be dead, but actually survived! Jaques never tells if she dies or not :o, Rose could recover and then journey to find Martin and find him just a bit after he returns from the adventures mentioned in Legend of Luke. :)
Yeah! See?? I bet Rose DID live but he never put it in.
It's not likely. Even if she had lived, she wouldn't be right in the head.
Says who!? There have been some MIRACULOUS recoveries in the series. This would be an easy one!
You kinda ruin the hopes that Rose lived Tiria. (well almost)
Well, in the TV series at the end it has Grumm putting flowers on her grave. Sorry, but I don't think she lived.
Hmf. I just wish she could have dug her way out and had a child or something. that would be a good way to say that Matthias actually WAS related to Martin.
That implies that Rose may have been buried alive :(
I mean if like she came back to life. :P
nope, sorry. can't take that idea seriously.
PS. how would that happen?
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 24, 2012, 01:48:47 PM
Says who!? There have been some MIRACULOUS recoveries in the series. This would be an easy one!
If she had lived, a lot of people (including me) would complain about how she was invincible and everything.
Quote from: MatthiasMan on April 24, 2012, 11:02:21 PM
You kinda ruin the hopes that Rose lived Tiria. (well almost)
She didn't live. It says in the book that she died.
Eeerrr. Nev mind.......Look I'm just stating IF. That doesn't mean inevitably. And I said WISH she had dug her way out. That doesn't mean it had to happen.
her wounds were already pretty strong they would have seen a shallow breath or something martin and some healers would try to save ehr but it wouldnt work
Are you guys all serious!!!?
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on April 26, 2012, 11:33:50 PM
Well, in the TV series at the end it has Grumm putting flowers on her grave. Sorry, but I don't think she lived.
So umm when did the T.V. series become an expert on what happened?
Quote from: MatthiasMan on April 28, 2012, 08:27:13 PM
I mean if like she came back to life. :P
That's a bit far-fetched
Quote from: redwallgurl on April 29, 2012, 05:18:43 PM
her wounds were already pretty strong they would have seen a shallow breath or something martin and some healers would try to save ehr but it wouldnt work
There is this condition called a COMA it is were life signs can NOT be found!!! A coma could have resulted from the blow (especially if DEATH could have resulted from a blow like that :P)
And Tiria...... What is there to complain about!!!!!?? This is something that should make Redwall fans HAPPY. I don't like invincible characters either, but i don't like ones that can be dispatched by being thrown into a wall by a tired creature!!
My point is I wish Rose lived.
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 29, 2012, 07:08:49 PM
Are you guys all serious!!!?
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on April 26, 2012, 11:33:50 PM
Well, in the TV series at the end it has Grumm putting flowers on her grave. Sorry, but I don't think she lived.
So umm when did the T.V. series become an expert on what happened?
Quote from: MatthiasMan on April 28, 2012, 08:27:13 PM
I mean if like she came back to life. :P
That's a bit far-fetched
Quote from: redwallgurl on April 29, 2012, 05:18:43 PM
her wounds were already pretty strong they would have seen a shallow breath or something martin and some healers would try to save ehr but it wouldnt work
There is this condition called a COMA it is were life signs can NOT be found!!! A coma could have resulted from the blow (especially if DEATH could have resulted from a blow like that :P)
And Tiria...... What is there to complain about!!!!!?? This is something that should make Redwall fans HAPPY. I don't like invincible characters either, but i don't like ones that can be dispatched by being thrown into a wall by a tired creature!!
I don't recall Badrang being tired when he killed her, but even if he was the adrenaline in his system would've hidden it pretty well.
Someone who has been running and fighting around is INEVITABLY tired..... Needless to say, when I think of Rose, I shall always complete the story in a way were she lives to meet Martin again.
Here is a fanfiction (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3559213/1/If_I_Should_Wake_Before_I_Die) about Rose surviving being thrown against the wall, and she has head trauma. Just thought you might be interested. Be warned, though, it's a bit disturbing.
Did she live in that!? I can't tell. It sounds like she dies at the end in that one too!
(Off Topic)
That is a really good fanfiction you posted, Tiria!
I Rose lived then you'd have a reason for Mattias to be related to Martin, so there.
I know! That's what I said!
Oh. Well I said that's what would happen again.
If Rose had lived it still would have been possible for them to go to Mossflower.
I've plotted entire journies in my mind about that!
BTW *groans*, This topic was better dead. It raised constant arguments.
Someone woke the sleeping beast...... :o
Lol
Romsca could have lived too!
Hey that would be a good Fanfic sleeping beauty in a redwall form. So she "falls asleep" when her head hits the wall....and then a group of animals go on a quest to find Martin her true love to wake her.
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on January 06, 2013, 09:02:09 PM
Hey that would be a good Fanfic sleeping beauty in a redwall form. So she "falls asleep" when her head hits the wall....and then a group of animals go on a quest to find Martin her true love to wake her.
lol, There are scientifically possible ways to show her as living in a canon way......Do I spoiler it?
Or she could become a zombie... ;D
That would be pretty interesting actually
You guys are utterly hopeless! :D
Quote from: phoenixfoden on January 11, 2013, 12:04:47 AM
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on January 09, 2013, 07:49:37 AM
Quote from: danflorreguba on January 07, 2013, 10:04:17 PM
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on January 07, 2013, 09:09:48 PM
Or she could become a zombie... ;D
:P Ga 'way!
Well, someone posted about her getting out of her grave, so yeah... ;)
or mabey clogg turned her into frankenstien! :o
It would make a good Redwall horror.
Did you know that in the real book, Frankenstein, is the maker and his creation is only called the monster.
Back on topic, maybe she went into a comma (spelling?) and forgot who she was and were she came from.
or mabey clogg turned her into an epic supersolder that has only one mission:terminate martin!
it could have happend! we dont know how martin died! :o
I could've sworn that there was something that revealed how he died (old age I think).
*rose terminates danflorreguba*muhahahahahahaha!
Where'd all the optimists's go? Seriously, stop hating, it's getting REALLY old.
what am i hating ???
I really don't know. Maybe Rose's ghost is what kills Martin
or one of gonffs robberies gone wrong...
he steals a knife and "drops" it on martin
steals an anvil and "drops" it on martin. :D
This topic is called "What if Rose had lived" for a reason off-topic'ers! Now if you want to go be mean, do it somewhere else!
IM NOT BEING MEAN EVERY ONE ON THIS FORUM HAS GONE MAD!!! ??? >:(
Due to increasing aggravation, this topic will be locked for the next 24 hours. After that, hopefully attitudes will cool and offtopicness will die off.
It's unlocked now! :D
lol, it was unlocked a LONG time ago. :D ... I think.... No more off-topic posts please. You guys hate it when we do that, so do do it to us.
What if she lived and merried some one else?
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on February 06, 2013, 02:16:44 AM
What if she lived and merried some one else?
That would be the worst thing ever in Redwall.... Worse than Clkuny the Scourge.
She could have gotten amnesia (like alot of fanfics) and turned evil!
What about Aubretia, she looked like Rose.
Aubretia was Brome's descendant, a distant niece of Rose. That explains the resemblance. So umm... yeah.
I am sorry that it's so long. It seems to be a trend in my posts... I try to keep them organized.
Coma Theory
The possibility of Roses survival got me curious, so I pulled out my copy of Martin the Warrior and started rereading the part where she died. One thing that got my attention was that Rose wasn't buried at the end. Brome planned to take her body back to Noonvale, and bury her there. Martin left before they reached Noonvale. This lent some credence to the coma theory. What if, after they reached home, they discovered she wasn't dead. Perhaps she searched for Martin, but was never able to find him. (I believe some of you said that maybe she did find him. Then why didn't they get married? Why wasn't she ever mentioned in Redwall records? Just some things to consider.)
I must play devil's advocate. In the epilogue, it states that Grumm planted a rose on Rose's grave. She was, indeed, buried in Noonvale. Now, you could argue that she died of another cause, not her head trauma. In that case, why would Aubretia deliberately present it as if Rose had been killed by Badrang? The only reason I can think of is that there was some horrible tragedy that made it less painful to end the story there. Perhaps Rose suffered insanity because of her trauma, and ended her days a shadow of her former self.
One more thought on the coma theory before I move on, what if Rose survived, unknown to all her loved ones? What if Brome and the others where attacked by some vermin on their way home. They escape, but are forced to abandon Rose. A "dead mousers" isn't much interest to the savages, so they leave her and go off to attack someone else.
Rose is found by a hermit who lives in the area. He treats her, and she eventually recovers conciseness. Here's the kicker, she remembers nothing. She starts a new life, helps to fend off the vermin tribe, and maybe even marries. Aside from brief flashes, her old life is forgotten. Her grave at Noonvale is nothing but a memorial.
Of course, this theory is mere speculation. A little too out there to be given true credence. EDIT I am here referring to to my amnesia scenario, not the coma theory in general.
Book AU
So much for trying to accommodate the book. Let's take things a step forward, and say that Rose was never hit against the wall. To prevent this, I am giving her an injury early on in the battle. Serious enough to get her out of the action, but not fatal. (Grumm may die because of this. I could be mistaken, but I believe that Rose was defending him when she received her injury. I know, I am heartless. I just prefer battles in which the good guys pay for their victory. War always has a price.)
Oh! Question. If Rose survived, is there a chance Martin would've spared Badrang? I know he was a terrible vermin, but I've always hated the Redwall heroes vengeful streak. If Martin wasn't so stricken with grief, perhaps he could've seen his foe was beaten.
Regardless, Rose and Martin return to Noonvale, and marry.
A happy ending! Wonderful. Only... what happens to Mossflower?
Some of you have claimed that even if Rose had survived, Martin could've traveled with her and reached Mossflower. I have one objection to this. What would Rose she loved Noonvale dearly, and I propose that she wouldn't leave it without a good reason. "What about being with Martin?" you may ask. "If he wanted to travel, wouldn't she go with him?"
I disagree with the view that Martin is a wandering warrior, for reasons already stated by other users. However, even assuming he had an itchy travel foot, I think he'd be willing to give it up to stay in Noonvale with Rose. He didn't have the same love for travel that she did for her home. I like to think he would've become the chieftain of Noonvale.
Major Spoilers for Mossflower
And now, the flip-side of the situation. Corim. Everyone seems to assume that if Martin hadn't shown up, Tsarmina would've won. I don't know about this. How crucial was Martin to Corim's victory? Now, I don't want to discredit Martin in any way, but I think they could've managed without him.
In the first half of the book, Martin's actions were minimal. He did seem to inspire the woodlanders, including Ferdy and Coggs. (My sister suggested that if Martin never showed up, the young hedgehogs would never be captured. Does this mean that the woodlanders wouldn't have hired Chubb? And poor Gingivere...)
In the end, he returns with a ship full of reinforcements. They use the ship to dam the river, TB makes catapult things, and the flooding is sped up.
Of course, Bella wasn't exactly sitting on her paws before Martin came back. She had a plan, and a pretty good one. She was going to take the woodlanders and leave, waiting for Kotir to flood on it's own. Even if he never returned, they could've made it.
Naturally, Martin's absence and Rose's survival could prompt any number of changes. Bella might decide to find her father herself. Gnoff could be killed if he stayed in Mossflower. Without his guidance, Redwall could fall if it was founded at all. It would unravel the whole book, the entire series.
To top all that gobble-ly gook up, here are some basic plot ideas for a universe where Rose does survive. (Yes, I did remember the topic.)
Martin stays in Noonvale. Corim loses Mossflower. Woodlanders stay as slaves under Tsarmina.
Martin stays in Noonvale. Corim wins Mossflower by some other means. They need a new guy for their tapestry.
Martin stays in Noonvale. Corim loses Mossflower. They escape, and travel south. They end up at Martin and Rose's doorstep.
There is a disaster at Noonvale, Rose and Martin are forced to lead their tribe north. They end up in Mossflower Country. After a conflict with Kotir, they are taken in by Corim. Martin becomes one of its leaders.
... Do I talk too much?
no not at all great theroies but I have one question if Martin wasn't there Ferdy and Coggs might not have gotten captured so, they wouldn't meet Gingivere which ruins the choice of the woodlanders running away to Gingivere and Sandigomm's farm
lol, they wouldn't need to. :D
BTW, I'm pretty sure they never mentioned how OLD Grumm was when he laid the Rose, so really that could have been YEARS later... A little out there, I know, but ... This death is just as much out there in my opinion.
Quote from: Mattio on February 09, 2013, 11:12:12 AM
no not at all great theroies but I have one question if Martin wasn't there Ferdy and Coggs might not have gotten captured so, they wouldn't meet Gingivere which ruins the choice of the woodlanders running away to Gingivere and Sandigomm's farm
Thanks, Mattio. Yes, that did occur to me. Still, they could've gone somewhere else. It would be a little tenser, since they wouldn't have certain sanctuary, but they are a hardy bunch. One thing, does anyone know any other valuable information the woodlanders would be deprived of if they didn't hire Chubb?
Quote from: danflorreguba on February 09, 2013, 05:23:03 PM
BTW, I'm pretty sure they never mentioned how OLD Grumm was when he laid the Rose, so really that could have been YEARS later... A little out there, I know, but ... This death is just as much out there in my opinion.
I addressed that in my massive wall of text up there. My problem with that theory is the storytellers present it as if Rose had died from her wounds. Why wouldn't they say something like, "Miraculously, my great-great ect. aunt wasn't dead. She recovered, led a long life, then died. That's when Grumm placed the rose on her grave." instead of being so misleading?
Obviously, the quote above is a paraphrase, but I still feel they would include that important detail, unless they had a reason to deceive the woodlanders, or were ignorant themselves. Why would they be ignorant? This implies their ancestors had a reason for clouding things up, which says nothing good for Rose.
Dann, pardon my ignorance, but I am afraid I don't understand what you mean by
"This death is just as much out there in my opinion." Would you mind explaining? Sorry... I feel awkward.
I believe Laterose died by being throne against the wall and brakeing her neck. BJ kinda brought her back with Aubretia.
I wish they mentioned more about Aubretia.
OH MY GOSH YOU GUYS! I apologize for yelling, but this topic is called WHAT IF for a reason! Why can't we get this obvious point across! This is not for debate over whether or not she died, but discussing it after the assuption that she's ALIVE. Please cut out the off-topicness, if you're not going to post on topic, than don't post at all!
http://[url=http://martinwouldhavenotgonetomossflowerandthewildcatwouldstillbealive >:(]martinwouldhavenotgonetomossflowerandthewildcatwouldstillbealive >:([/url]
AND REDWALL WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN BUILT :o
ugh, we already went over this, Martin was not an essential component to the take over, besides, we're talking about AFTER she got a head injury, we aren't ruling it out, we are working around it.
Mods? Can you please tell people to stop OFF-TOPIC posting? This topic is called:
What if... for a reason! Come on guys! How many times does this have to be stated?! Read the title please!
One of our new members, Free Thought, has written a short story about "what if Rose had lived". Read it here: ://www.redwallabbey.com/pics/right-side.jpg (//http://://www.redwallabbey.com/pics/right-side.jpg)
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 09, 2013, 08:34:46 PM
One of our new members, Free Thought, has written a short story about "what if Rose had lived". Read it here: ://www.redwallabbey.com/pics/right-side.jpg (//http://://www.redwallabbey.com/pics/right-side.jpg)
Here is the link to what he was trying to do. ;)
http://redwallabbey.com/forum/index.php?topic=3448.0 (http://redwallabbey.com/forum/index.php?topic=3448.0)
Well from what I could tell that looks like it could be a great story. :) (Haven't had time to read to read it)
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 09, 2013, 08:34:46 PM
One of our new members, Free Thought, has written a short story about "what if Rose had lived". Read it here: ://www.redwallabbey.com/pics/right-side.jpg (//http://://www.redwallabbey.com/pics/right-side.jpg)
What the... what went rong with the link?
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 11, 2013, 09:39:01 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 09, 2013, 08:34:46 PM
One of our new members, Free Thought, has written a short story about "what if Rose had lived". Read it here: ://www.redwallabbey.com/pics/right-side.jpg (//http://://www.redwallabbey.com/pics/right-side.jpg)
What the... what went rong with the link?
HAHAHA! You tried using a J-peg FILE! :D
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 11, 2013, 10:41:20 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 11, 2013, 09:39:01 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 09, 2013, 08:34:46 PM
One of our new members, Free Thought, has written a short story about "what if Rose had lived". Read it here: ://www.redwallabbey.com/pics/right-side.jpg (//http://://www.redwallabbey.com/pics/right-side.jpg)
What the... what went rong with the link?
HAHAHA! You tried using a J-peg FILE! :D
Don't laugh. He ment well, only he did the wrong kind of link. Sorry Ungatt Trunn, it happens to all of us some time or another.
Quote from: Leatho Shellhound on March 12, 2013, 02:38:05 AM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 11, 2013, 10:41:20 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 11, 2013, 09:39:01 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on March 09, 2013, 08:34:46 PM
One of our new members, Free Thought, has written a short story about "what if Rose had lived". Read it here: ://www.redwallabbey.com/pics/right-side.jpg (//http://://www.redwallabbey.com/pics/right-side.jpg)
What the... what went rong with the link?
HAHAHA! You tried using a J-peg FILE! :D
Don't laugh. He ment well, only he did the wrong kind of link. Sorry Ungatt Trunn, it happens to all of us some time or another.
I wasn't laughing at him, I was attempting to laugh WITH him. ;)
Hmmm... Must of been something wrong with the link...