What do you think about those characters that were kind of neutral, but played a part in the story? Like Bluefen, Veil's mother, and that old rat or whatever he was in Taggerung who kidnapped the Dibbuns that fell from the walltops.
Please leave your opinion if you have one.
We can't come close to judging, or discerning, whether or not minor villains were very bad or not. They did, as a fact, hang out with massive cruel murdering hordes, so my guess is they weren't that good.
And the water rat in Taggerung, forget his name right now, kidnapped and was about to murder two dibbuns when he was stopped by Vallug and Eefera. He was a very bad beast
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 04, 2011, 03:41:08 PM
We can't come close to judging, or discerning, whether or not minor villains were very bad or not. They did, as a fact, hang out with massive cruel murdering hordes, so my guess is they weren't that good.
Remember that many major hordes, like Swartt Sixclaw's, prohibited deserters, and were arranged so as to kill such as might try to leave, so that a lot of the time, a minor villain didn't really have a choice whether to leave or not... if they wanted to desert they would be killed, simple as that. Judging them by their deeds is one thing, but in this case I'm not sure it's fair to consider their company.
The fact is that a decent part of the time, when we do get to see minor villains, they're relatively unimposing figures, like Lousewort and Sneezewort, and I'm not sure you could fairly call those sorts of characters "evil". A fair number of hordebeasts we can see are pretty well fifty-fifty; they may be evil, they may qualify as gray. Consider the case of Blacktooth and Splitnose in Mossflower, who, while definitely expressing villainous tendencies, also display a softer side.
I would almost say that labeling Bluefen as gray might be harsh, considering that we never actually see her say anything, and she seems to behave nicely enough from the little we see.
Besides, if Veil had any good in him, well, he sure didn't get it from Swartt, and if genetics had anything to do with it, it had to have come from somewhere. ;)
At the same time, though, there are plenty of minor villains that really are just as violent and murderous as their leaders, such as the ones in "Mariel of Redwall" and "Pearls of Lutra". I think that those are mostly corsairs, which may indicate an interesting trend, if sea-going vermin are on average more violent and aggressive than their land-going counterparts.
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 04, 2011, 03:58:36 PM
I think that those are mostly corsairs, which may indicate an interesting trend, if sea-going vermin are on average more violent and aggressive than their land-going counterparts.
Probably all that seaweed grog. xD
Most villains that deserted showed the following traits: Hatred, madness, arrogance and vile conduct. Also, many escapers (such as in Outcast of Redwall), left behind some. Such an act shows contempt, leaving a comrade to almost certain death by the villain leader (in Outcast of Redwall, Swarrt Sixclaw).
In the case of Blacktooth and Splitnose, they showed their "softer side" when threatened with death by each other's hand. How is that a soft side, willing to slay your own friend? They did, afterall, kill each other. After a fashion, anyway. Splitnose regretted it, and could be argued to have died as a result of killing his friend in his regret, but those were independent events.
What about Romsca? She was a vermin but she did end up saving the Abbot.
Quote from: Wydran Riverpaw on July 04, 2011, 05:24:44 PM
What about Romsca? She was a vermin but she did end up saving the Abbot.
I agree, Romsca was definitely grey. She wasn't a good guy by any means, but there was more than blackness in her, too.
Excuse my interruption, guys - please continue with your thread. I am enjoying this immensely.
I've always found those villains who end up living peaceful lives interesting. For example, in the Bellmaker there was the rat named Blaggut who ended up killing his master and building boats and things for the Abbey. He may have started off evil, but he sure ended good.
Quote from: Icefire on July 04, 2011, 09:58:18 PM
I've always found those villains who end up living peaceful lives interesting. For example, in the Bellmaker there was the rat named Blaggut who ended up killing his master and building boats and things for the Abbey. He may have started off evil, but he sure ended good.
Agreed. There was also a rat in Triss named...ARGH can't remember, he was the deaf one who ended up helping the good guys in the end.
Grubbage! I loved that guy!
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 05, 2011, 12:02:31 AM
Grubbage! I loved that guy!
OH YEAH GRUBBAGE!!!! TY. HE WAS SO FUNNY!!! ;D
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 04, 2011, 03:58:36 PM
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 04, 2011, 03:41:08 PM
We can't come close to judging, or discerning, whether or not minor villains were very bad or not. They did, as a fact, hang out with massive cruel murdering hordes, so my guess is they weren't that good.
Remember that many major hordes, like Swartt Sixclaw's, prohibited deserters, and were arranged so as to kill such as might try to leave, so that a lot of the time, a minor villain didn't really have a choice whether to leave or not... if they wanted to desert they would be killed, simple as that. Judging them by their deeds is one thing, but in this case I'm not sure it's fair to consider their company.
The fact is that a decent part of the time, when we do get to see minor villains, they're relatively unimposing figures, like Lousewort and Sneezewort, and I'm not sure you could fairly call those sorts of characters "evil". A fair number of hordebeasts we can see are pretty well fifty-fifty; they may be evil, they may qualify as gray. Consider the case of Blacktooth and Splitnose in Mossflower, who, while definitely expressing villainous tendencies, also display a softer side.
I would almost say that labeling Bluefen as gray might be harsh, considering that we never actually see her say anything, and she seems to behave nicely enough from the little we see.
Besides, if Veil had any good in him, well, he sure didn't get it from Swartt, and if genetics had anything to do with it, it had to have come from somewhere. ;)
At the same time, though, there are plenty of minor villains that really are just as violent and murderous as their leaders, such as the ones in "Mariel of Redwall" and "Pearls of Lutra". I think that those are mostly corsairs, which may indicate an interesting trend, if sea-going vermin are on average more violent and aggressive than their land-going counterparts.
agreed. im guessing Veil's good parts came from Byrony's teaching, nurture is an important factor in deciding a person's personality. and it is mentioned in the books that sea-going vermin are on average more violent and agressive than their land going counterparts. wait...where does that put the Rapscallions then?
I like Grubbage too. :D
I really liked it how Romsca and Blaggut showed some... concern, I guess, for the "good" characters. They were awesome.
Quote from: DanielofRedwall on July 05, 2011, 05:51:08 AM
I really liked it how Romsca and Blaggut showed some... concern, I guess, for the "good" characters. They were awesome.
indeed. grubbage was merely a comic relief. romsca and blaggut were more solid rounded characters who became grey in the end. blaggut actually may be good by end of bellmaker
Blaggut was good all along, it was just never shown until it was at all possible it could be shown. There was no way for him to demosnatrte himself as good, and thus gray, until the end of The Bellmaker. Same for Romsca, and Grubbage.
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 06, 2011, 02:57:18 PM
Blaggut was good all along, it was just never shown until it was at all possible it could be shown. There was no way for him to demosnatrte himself as good, and thus gray, until the end of The Bellmaker. Same for Romsca, and Grubbage.
wouldn't say same for romsca, but certainly for blaggut and grubbage
IMO Tramun Clogg wasn't really a villain.
Quote from: DanielofRedwall on July 05, 2011, 05:51:08 AM
I really liked it how Romsca and Blaggut showed some... concern, I guess, for the "good" characters. They were awesome.
I liked Romsca, too. And Grubbage! I really do pity some of those villain side-kick kind of characters who are only there because some actual villain sort of forced them into it.
Quote from: daskar666 on July 06, 2011, 06:31:40 PM
IMO Tramun Clogg wasn't really a villain.
Yes he was. He was a searat, he looted he plundered he backstabbed. even Badrang was afraid of Clogg's reputation.
Exactly, and also: He wasn't a hero, that makes him a villain. There are no gray characters in Redwall. The gray characters that do exist are still villain or hero, they're just against normal species alignment.
I don't remember him doing anything OVERLY villainous in the story (except the part with Celandine) he seemed to be genuinely friendly with Ballaw (and when he learned it was a trick it seemed like he chased them more because he felt cheated), in the final battle he ignored Badrang and almost rooted for the woodlanders in a way, and he didn't die.
Don't forget Blaggut Romsca and Grubbage were corsairs as well, plus plenty of characters scared antagonists regardless of their allegiance.
Truman Clogg is no doubt a fascinating character. He wears a unique style, and talks with a unique way. Actually, his tale is pretty funny. Achieve a land slide victory by simply locking Badrang out of his fortress, then allow the guy to sneak back in by way of an escape tunnel. Then have your crew abandon you, go mad and insane, and supposedly bury them all along with your enemy. Fascinating, defiantly. Villianous, I'd say yes.
Surviving also made him the first villain leader to not die by the end of the novel. Only two others managed that, Ruggan Bor and the Badredd/Little Redd.
Clogg is bad, but not evil. Does that make sense?
Quote from: Redwall Musician on July 08, 2011, 05:49:08 PM
Clogg is bad, but not evil. Does that make sense?
evil is a synonym for bad so what ur saying does not make sense
Quote from: sabretache5611 on July 08, 2011, 06:37:56 PM
Quote from: Redwall Musician on July 08, 2011, 05:49:08 PM
Clogg is bad, but not evil. Does that make sense?
evil is a synonym for bad so what ur saying does not make sense
Sorry for randomness of this quote:
"'His name is Winnie-
ther-Pooh,' said Christopher Robin, 'You do know what
ther means?'
'Indeed I do,' said I knowing it was the only explanation I would get."
Non-sense. So wonderful. It inspired A.A.Milne to write
Winnie-the-Pooh. I love Pooh!
You can ignore me now.
I'd say that as a slaver, thief, and would-be murderer, Cap'n Clogg does rank as an evil villain, even if you otherwise like his style.
Whether he is necessarily evil at the end of the book, after he's lost his mind, is debatable, but in his right mind he is definitely so.
I think I'd say that he was a villain in the same way that Yoofus Lightpaw was a hero.
Quote from: daskar666 on July 09, 2011, 07:23:30 PM
I think I'd say that he was a villain in the same way that Yoofus Lightpaw was a hero.
What does that mean sorry. do u mean he is a villain or nada, because if u think he isn't a villain, refer to previous comments. Tramun Clogg is a villain period
Quote from: sabretache5611 on July 10, 2011, 02:59:34 AM
Quote from: daskar666 on July 09, 2011, 07:23:30 PM
I think I'd say that he was a villain in the same way that Yoofus Lightpaw was a hero.
What does that mean sorry. do u mean he is a villain or nada, because if u think he isn't a villain, refer to previous comments. Tramun Clogg is a villain period
If you look at Yoofus...he was a protagonist...but...not exactly. Same with Clogg's antagonism.
One other fact that I forgot to include is that he was friendly with his crew, a possible unique scenario for any type of vermin leader.
Plugg Firetail was friendly with his crew. They showed genuine affection for him, and some openly wept at his death. Villain? Yes, defiantly.
Yoofus Lightpaw was a thief. I'd still call him as much a hero as any. There was no way he was ever going to hurt someone, and he cared for the weak and fought vermin.
Quote
One other fact that I forgot to include is that he was friendly with his crew, a possible unique scenario for any type of vermin leader.
That is an interesting trait, and fairly rare among major vermin leaders, but it isn't entirely unique; there seem to possibly be a few similar situations:
Mossflower: It's implied that the Thousand Eyes army lived comfortably under Verdauga Greeneyes for many seasons. This doesn't necessarily indicate that the wildcat ruler himself was especially friendly, but I'm willing to bet that he got along pretty well with most of his troops. After all, they seemed to remember him fondly enough, and what we see of him in the book is pretty positive. (I know, I bring up Verdauga all the time, but he's probably one of my favorite characters.)
Mossflower: The mercenary fox Bane seems to have a solid rapport with his followers.
Pearls of Lutra: Although Romsca doesn't exactly count as a normal vermin anyway, all the interactions we see between her and her crew are positive. Also, Barranca in particular is loyal to and expects loyalty from his crew -- which is why he's so easily dispatched by Rasconza; he never saw that betrayal coming. Rasconza himself seems to get along very well with his followers too, for the most part.
I know this isn't exactly a massive list, but there are a few instances of vermin getting along well with their subordinates.
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 12, 2011, 08:30:03 PM
Plugg Firetail was friendly with his crew. They showed genuine affection for him, and some openly wept at his death. Villain? Yes, defiantly.
Yoofus Lightpaw was a thief. I'd still call him as much a hero as any. There was no way he was ever going to hurt someone, and he cared for the weak and fought vermin.
I HATE Yoofus Lightpaw! He makes me so MAD!!!! When Skipper pulled him through the water by his tail, I was almost glad.
I also hate the vole in Eulalia. He acts like a spoiled brat.
Yoofus Lightpaw. Annoyance, yes, and very cheeky. Also a vermin-fighter and hero. Did for his own good maybe, but he added a lot to the book. Didn't like him myself. And then there's Wild Doogy Plumm, a braw highlander dealing with a claymore-thief. Those were pretty funny scenes with them, mainly only when they looted, as an understatement, the vermin camp. xD
And what vote? What are you talking about?
@James Gryphon: Good points. Pearls of Lutra had a lot of loyalty in it, and also plenty of backstabbing.
I'd say Yoofus Lightpaw was one of my favorite characters, simplt because he wasn't the epitome for traditional morality. The vole in Eulalia!, well, I'm still reading the book, and yes, I agree that he acted like a spoiled brat, but a significant part of it is most likely due to his hostile treatment and banishment by the Redwallers.
I have to say that I'm inclined to agree with Daskar on this -- yes, Yoofus can be "annoying", in that he is an obstacle to the main protagonists, but he's still essentially a heroic character, and I think the story is made more interesting by the fact that he isn't yet perfect. Having a kleptomaniac hero keeps things interesting.
I feel it's important to have some sort of conflict or development in the heroes' side too -- and having a perfect, happy team of mice, squirrels, hares, etc. that never disagree with each other, make mistakes, or are ever in any mood but nonchalant, jolly, or grim, would just make the heroes... well, a little boring.
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 13, 2011, 07:13:20 PM
I feel it's important to have some sort of conflict or development in the heroes' side too -- and having a perfect, happy team of mice, squirrels, hares, etc. that never disagree with each other, make mistakes, or are ever in any mood but nonchalant, jolly, or grim, would just make the heroes... well, a little boring.
I would say they wasn't the case. Most groups of heroes did disagree at a stage, and did present in their book mistakes.
Also, Yoofus Lighpaw's main problematic trait, at least to me, was his tendency to halter the heroes in their pursuits.
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 13, 2011, 07:18:41 PM
Also, Yoofus Lighpaw's main problematic trait, at least to me, was his tendency to halter the heroes in their pursuits.
Which simply means that he was not a moral drone, and had his own goals besides resolving the main conflict. Making both the story and the character increasingly complex.
Yeah, and I'd say it was his most problematic trait.
If there's any major problem with that book, I think, it's that the villains don't really pose the heroes a threat, up until the very end. Tam, Lightpaw, et all can easily sneak into the villain camp any time they need to, the villains are hopeless at tracking them, and the
Redwall equivalent of the Stormtrooper Effect means that even if they were to get caught there's no need to feel any particular fear or concern for them, since the heroes can fight their way out without any problems.
With all that in mind, Yoofus is a necessary plot obstacle because most of the time, he gives the heroes more trouble than Gulo or his army. If you don't have him in the story, the villains have to be beefed up because otherwise the story is a cakewalk.
Anyway, I don't think it's fair to describe the main characters as "moral drones" -- there's nothing at all wrong with someone being a
good guy -- but at the same time, it doesn't mean that Yoofus is a bad character either, just because of his relative disinterest in the main conflict and kleptomaniac tendencies, and it does make the story a bit more complex.
QuoteMost groups of heroes did disagree at a stage, and did present in their book mistakes.
Well, there are a few mistakes, but nothing that generally causes the heroes any real long-lasting harm -- instead it's something that another character immediately comes and bails them out of... like in
Mariel of Redwall, where the heroes let themselves get trapped by the Flitcheye, but because Martin supernaturally told them to call for help, the owl comes and saves them, thus getting them safely through trouble, even they weren't paying enough attention to keep themselves out of danger.
Likewise, Viola Bankvole and Welko in
Pearls of Lutra were on the verge of being overrun by vermin, because the heroes perhaps didn't take their safety into account like they might have in their planning -- but they get bailed out at the last minute when the seals come to save them, something that the heroes didn't know about at all.
As for the disagreements, I think I might have an idea of a case or two, but if you wouldn't mind, I would appreciate some examples?
The other 2 characters who are not villains/gray are Groddil and Askor.
Yes, Groddil ordered part of the blue hordes to attack Stonepaw but only because he was ordered to come down into Salamandastron's dungeons by Ungatt Trunn and wanted to survive in the midst of Stonepaw's bloodwrath. He also seemed to want vengeance not only for himself but for his family, which is unusual among vermin.
Askor, was bound by his land's moral code, and still managed to be cooperative with Jem and Walt. He also was trying to prevent Gulo from getting the walking stone, making him a gray character bordering on protagonism. True he said he'd kill Jem and Walt if they came closer, but like I said, it's most likely because of the society he was born into, and he did warn them not to approach.
Groddil. Gray? For one thing, vermin don't have a problem with getting revenge for fallen comrades. Many wanted to. Look at Mokkan, he swore to kill ten Redwallers for a slain river rat under his command, and twenty for his slain sibling. Many mates wanting revenge for slain partners.
Also on Groddil. Hated, utterly hated, Ungatt Trunn. How in the world that makes him gray, I couldn't come close to saying.
And saving your own skin doesn't make somebeast gray. It makes them self-concerned. Not particulary a bad thing.
Beyond that, Groddil watched many die, and served as the closest adviser of Ungatt Trunn. He tricked the wildcat all the time, and got his revenge by washing him out to see. Good scene, very well done.
As for being gray, no. By no means.
Askor.
Society is not the concern. Tagg/Veil, not affected. He was born a dangerous and treasonous wolverine. That he was. I personally like the guy. He was a cannibal for certain. Cannibalism isn't exactly the thing to get nailed. on the hero side of things.
I don't see what more there is to say on either, they're not gray.
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 14, 2011, 02:36:17 AM
Groddil. Gray? For one thing, vermin don't have a problem with getting revenge for fallen comrades. Many wanted to. Look at Mokkan, he swore to kill ten Redwallers for a slain river rat under his command, and twenty for his slain sibling. Many mates wanting revenge for slain partners.
Also on Groddil. Hated, utterly hated, Ungatt Trunn. How in the world that makes him gray, I couldn't come close to saying.
And saving your own skin doesn't make somebeast gray. It makes them self-concerned. Not particulary a bad thing.
Beyond that, Groddil watched many die, and served as the closest adviser of Ungatt Trunn. He tricked the wildcat all the time, and got his revenge by washing him out to see. Good scene, very well done.
As for being gray, no. By no means.
Askor.
Society is not the concern. Tagg/Veil, not affected. He was born a dangerous and treasonous wolverine. That he was. I personally like the guy. He was a cannibal for certain. Cannibalism isn't exactly the thing to get nailed. on the hero side of things.
I don't see what more there is to say on either, they're not gray.
On your points about Groddil tricking and hating Trunn, the protagonists do that to villains all the time. The part about saving his own skin though, doesn't point to the fact that he's gray, it simply shows that he didn't really have anything against the protagonist, and the only thing that suggests he's a villain is the fact that he's a fox.
Veil was certainly affected by his society. The entire population of Redwall, with the exception of Bryony, hated him, and Bryony was the only character for whom he showed love. On the main subject of Askor however, yes, he was dangerous. Badgers are also inherently dangerous. Both Askor and a few of the badgers in the series warned non-badger heroes about themselves being dangerous, instead of just killing them in Bloodwrath or eating them. But treacherous? The only character Askor commited treason to is Gulo the Savage, furthermore doing it for the good cause. As for cannibalism, killing for food could have been needed for the wolverine to survive, and his dislike of Gulo suggests that he didn't just kill and eat indiscriminantly like Gulo did.
First of all, Askor not liking Gulo doesn't mean he doesn't like to eat people.
I can't say I followed that reasoning.
Groddil: At basic, him being a fox, unless noted otherwise, makes him a villain. That's the way Redwall works. Beyond that, Groddil not being in direct participation to Ungatt Trunn's Blue Hordes for half the novel doesn't make him a hero. As there's no middle ground between villaincy and heroship, he's easily classed as villain.
Same for Askor, he's not a hero, classing him as villain.
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 14, 2011, 07:14:14 PM
there's no middle ground between villaincy and heroship
Please elaborate.
Brian Jacques said the following on numerous occasions and in more than one form.
From the Ask Brian Files:
42. Will you ever have any really good vermin or bad woodlanders in any of your stories?
"No! The goodies are good and the baddies are BAD, no grey areas."
All characters are either heroes or villains. The labled "grays" are beasts who are against their normal species' alignment. That is what I would say.
It does, as a fact, fit with canon, the author and the all the books.
As such, it seems reasonable.
That is what I meant by saying they must be villains.
I hope that made sense.
Well first of all opinions are subjective, and my interpretation may differ from Brian Jacques.
Most importantly however, Brian also confirmed that he purposefully kept Veil's morality a mystery and open to interpretation.
Quote from: sabretache5611 on July 04, 2011, 11:42:08 PM
Quote from: Icefire on July 04, 2011, 09:58:18 PM
I've always found those villains who end up living peaceful lives interesting. For example, in the Bellmaker there was the rat named Blaggut who ended up killing his master and building boats and things for the Abbey. He may have started off evil, but he sure ended good.
i love that guy
I'd say the watervole from Eulalia and Tugga Bruster were gray characters.
Quote from: daskar666 on July 18, 2011, 04:14:39 PM
I'd say the watervole from Eulalia and Tugga Bruster were gray characters.
Agreed. They were gray. Strange though, that watervole never getting a name-interesting characteristic.
Quote from: daskar666 on July 18, 2011, 04:14:39 PM
I'd say the watervole from Eulalia and Tugga Bruster were gray characters.
I so thought Trugga Bruster was grey. Well when I read it. I guess I kinda forgot about him. After my friend and I finished the book, we talked about how much we didn't like him.
I think Bluefen was really good. Have you ever read Kate Sullivan, A.K.A. Snowfur's short story callen "Swartt's really aweful, rotten no-good day?' At least, it's name it close enough along those lines.
Dingeye and Thura were definitely not villains.
Ashleg wasn't at least when he left Kotir.
Aggril and Blodd Apis are far from heroes but to call them villains...they don't really strike me as such.
Blodd Apis was the bee queen if I'm correct. Going to murder a bunch of Redwallers is pretty bad, that's clearly villainous.
Ashleg is a very interesting character.
I liked him, and Argulor. Ironic, really.
Good thinking on his part to leave.
Throughout the entire book he never truly identified himself as evil or did anything particuarly bad.
Oh yeah! I forgot about Tugga Bruster. Nasty. >:(
I thought of Blodd Apis as a hostile-type hermit. The main reasons she wanted to MURDER the characters tho are:
1. They captured and threatened her.
2. They wanted the doomwyte eye.
As for Argulor....at the beginning of the book I regarded him as Mossflower's equivalent of Asmodeus, however that turned out to not be a case. Definitely not a villain (someone who kills characters STRICTLY for food isn't) and obviously not a hero.
I always thought of Captain Snow as a good guy, and even before he stopped eating mice. I think that killing for food does not make them evil. Does anyone here think Captain Snow was evil?
Quote from: daskar666 on July 19, 2011, 05:18:42 PM
I thought of Blodd Apis as a hostile-type hermit. The main reasons she wanted to MURDER the characters tho are:
1. They captured and threatened her.
2. They wanted the doomwyte eye.
As for Argulor....at the beginning of the book I regarded him as Mossflower's equivalent of Asmodeus, however that turned out to not be a case. Definitely not a villain (someone who kills characters STRICTLY for food isn't) and obviously not a hero.
I considered Argulor a good guy because of his hatred against Tsarmina. If he had gotten a good chance to kill her he would have and probably would win the fight
What about Queen Dukwina Drampik and the other bloodrippers from Rogue Crew? They were shrews, but still I would consider them grey. Also Crumdun from the same book, he wasn't really evil. I haven't finished that book, BTW.
Quote from: LadyAmber4ever on July 18, 2011, 11:35:59 PM
I think Bluefen was really good. Have you ever read Kate Sullivan, A.K.A. Snowfur's short story callen "Swartt's really aweful, rotten no-good day?' At least, it's name it close enough along those lines.
I loved those things! I also really like the radio things. They were clever, amusing, and fun. I thank Kate Sullivan for giving the world such wickedly fun stories to us.
I like Askor. He is sort of grey, but he does say that he is a friend of nobeast, and that he eats people.
SKALRAG!!!!!!!! Well, Groddil from Lord Brocktree wasn't really EVIL, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Same with Skalrag. Geez, foxes really do end up unlucky in most of the stories, don't they?
Lousewort and sneezewort
I'd say that if a character doesn't display evil or good, if their a minor character and do not get the part to do so, they can just be ranked as good or bad based on their species' norm.
Also, consider a hero being stuck in a situation like Groddil or Skalrag. They would fight to the death or just be killed on the spot. Running with the line of thought of the latter, that shows that villains, as demonstrated in the books, assume the goodness of the good species, and treat them as such. Even bad woodlanders were killed by villains without a thought. Of course, villains do that to each other all the time, as their nature leads them to do. But in the line of recruiting, good species are never considered, obviously, as their not potential recruits for a vermin horde.
I know. But not being (completely) evil doesn't necessarily mean you're a "hero". Groddil was pretty much just doing what he had to do to survive when he didn't stop Fraul from running into the spider crabs. Well, he's a fox. Foxes are just naturally crafty. It's their nature.
Grubbage. No one ever talks about him and how he wasn't evil. He never heven talken like most searats.
That's been brought up before, twice in this thread. He's generally pretty well liked, I for one like him. Mainly for his hearing disability, that created so much comic relief.
Yeh. I love how whenever Plugg gave him an order, he would repeat what Plugg said, but with the wrong words, and then he would do whatwas ordered of him anyways. Example: Plugg gives him the order "Bring 'er in closer to shore!" In a command about the Seascab. And then Grubbage says: "I ain't throwin' my clothes ashore fer nobeast, I'll just take 'er in closer to shore." So hilarious!!! :D
Heehee...love Grubbage! ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D
He's so awesome. I love how they let him stay at Redwall afterwards.
Quote from: James Gryphon on July 04, 2011, 03:58:36 PM
I think that those are mostly corsairs, which may indicate an interesting trend, if sea-going vermin are on average more violent and aggressive than their land-going counterparts.
Not necessarily. What about Romsca?, She had a pretty soft side towards the Abbot, and other prisoners. Also, Blaggut from The Bellmaker became a friend of Redwallers, and a boatbuilder.
I would consider Romsca and Blaggut exceptions to that rule, along with Grubbage. But in general, I would defiantly say corsairs are more violent, and creative with that violence, than landlubbering vermin.
And Crumdun from the Rogue Crew, he wasn't realy a bad beast, but he was a sea-going vermin.
Ye ken, fer zome reazon when ah think o' ol' 'Dun ah think o' Malfoy...
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on August 20, 2011, 04:09:17 AM
I would consider Romsca and Blaggut exceptions to that rule, along with Grubbage. But in general, I would defiantly say corsairs are more violent, and creative with that violence, than landlubbering vermin.
I kinda agree. Even Ungant Trunn (from Lord Brocktree) knew that when he made captains of those two sea rats (who's names have slipped my mind). Ungant Trunn said something about how sea vermin know how to kill (something like that).
Yeah, Doomeye and Ripfang were their names. Said they killed all sorts of creatures, all ages, and the lot. Very proud of themselves too
yeah romsca was nice at the end but she was mean and killed at least a few lizards
But they were going to kill her