How big is Redwall?

[Tam and Martin]

Okay. 

[UNKN0WN]

But the human/creature ratio could be different in the Redwall Universe.

But really, even if the mice were the size of your thumb, all the places that are in Redwall, all the rooms, all the secret places, it would still be pretty big.

If mice in Redwall were the size of my thumb, the tip at least is one inch, Redwall would probably be the size of 15' by 15' or something.

15 feet?! I don't think that's enough at all! I'm sticking with a whale... A BLUE WHALE! That's right... I said it.

15-25 feet (4.5-7.5 meters) does sound like a reasonable height.

[Albrithr]

I, for one, tend to like great hulking monoliths, so I will work as if the Redwallers are human-sized (plus, it makes the math easier).  In the illustrations, Redwall appears to be built in a semi-Gothic architecture style, somewhat like Notre Dame Cathedral.  These buildings, being religious buildings, were laid out in cross-shaped patterns, and tended to be excessively tall, with the intention of directing the viewers attention heavenward.  If Matthias' dagger fell for 4.5 seconds, assuming Redwall has the same gravity as Earth, that would imply that he was approximately 100 meters above the Great Hall's floor.  That is, if I did my math right, about 330 feet- barely taller than Big Ben.  And that is still beneath the upper attics.  Another clue as to the abbey's size is the fact that nobody ever knows what is in the attics!  The first thing I would do if I lived in a giant building is explore and, given the innate curiosity of many Redwallers, I think that many of them would be the same.  This means the building must be incredibly vast, as few (if any) of its inhabitants have ever explored the entire contents of it.  And that's not even taking into account the labyrinthine corridors of the cellar.  This building was obviously built with a lot of foresight, and with the idea that it would be far more densely inhabited than it ever was--at least in most of the books.  So let's just estimate, for the sake of argument, that Redwall was built to contain 1,000 inhabitants.  That, if nothing else, makes for a nice round number.  Abbess Germaine, in designing the Abbey, would have wanted all under her care to be well-fed, so a large portion of the grounds would have been dedicated to agriculture.  It currently, in the United States, takes around one acre to feed an individual for a year, but Redwallers do not have the fertilizers and insecticides that are common in the developed world today, which greatly increases the quantity of land needed.  However, they do not need pasture lands, so altogether there vegetable crops, orchards, vineyards, and any other food-producing land would take up, say, 2500 acres.  Their pond, since it does not supply a great amount of food and was only an incidental addition to the Abbey (according to the Long Patrol) was probably relatively small, 75-100 acres at the very most, and quite likely smaller than that.  My family owns a 3 acre pond, and it can be quite well stocked with fish at times.  However, it is not big enough to sail upon, which is one reason the Abbey pond would likely be much larger.  Add to that cemetery grounds, flower gardens, beehives, recreational areas, and probably several other outbuildings which were built and demolished over the years (and were never important enough to be mentioned in the books- sheds, basically), then the grounds could very easily be 4000 (or more!) acres.  This would come out to be 6.25 square miles (16.2 km squared), which means that the walls would be 2.5mi x 2.5 mi (4km x 4km) if the Abbey were perfectly square. 
Which serves to make that walltop race more impressive 

[Captain Tammo]

While I commend you on your research and math, I think that that's simply far too big for what Brian had planned. Though who am I to tell you how you can and can't think of Redwall?! I loved the point you made about how creatures hadn't even explored the upper attics. And it's true, but I believe that that is the case because it was structurally unsound. I know it sounds weird. Redwall structurally unsound? Well in later books (I believe it's Mattimeo whilst fighting Ironbeak) a party climbs the upper floors and even though the outside is very much stable, the inside nearly crumbles. From what I understand an entire staircase collapses! So perhaps that's why nobeast had ventured up there? Who needs those kinds of safety hazards when all they need is in the immediate abbey? Also, if you break your leg, assuming this is medieval medical techniques, that's going to take a much longer time to heal than in today's world, so why risk it?

Again, great point Albrithr! And welcome to the forum!

[SilentSam]

Hmm.. maybe as big as a real castle..

[LT Sandpaw]

As big as Redwall sounds it really can't be all that large.
1#First fact that says this is the wall top race, if the abbey was that massive the race would be a long one not something you could sprint.
2# During the book Redwall it said Matthias went into a cavern that could hold the entire of Redwall comfortably... if Redwall was that massive that cave would be the size of well... just really really big.
3# Also several times during the series squirrels climb to the top of the building itself, that would be one heck of a climb up sheer surfaces even for a squirrel.

That said we do know that in the Redwall universe the creatures are around the size of humans, we know this because they can eat certain fruit that would be much to large normally AKA apples. that means we get the Narnia affect (Mice are bigger badgers are smaller etc.)

Now we get to the part about being self sustaining. this is harder to understand but all I can think of is that Redwall is very lucky come harvest time.

[Mhera]

Concerning the 1000 hares in Taggerung, didn't Russano send half of them with Ruggan Bor as an escort? That would mean the abbey would only have to feed and house 500 hares. With that said, the abbess did say that Redwall could sustain ALL of his hares for a long time. With regards to food, that would mean an insane amount of vittles to needed to be available no matter the number (these are hares we're talking about!).

Also, the walls where probably not 2.5 miles each. That would make the wall races 10 miles, and I don't care how fast Fwirl is it would take way more than just a few minutes to run that. Also remember that there was a race on the ground that the dibbuns could take part in that was the same distance as the elders' race. That means that it was a distance that most toddlers could cover (if they stayed on course, that is!), so certainly far less than 10 miles.  Also, the Skipper in Triss ran three laps of the walls every morning before breakfast, besides other exercises. This would put his daily mileage at 30, or roughly 10-20 more than a professional human distance runner puts in on a daily basis.

I agree with the posters who said that scale between beasts in Redwall is weird; again referring to Taggerung, when Deyna holds Martin's sword it's described as being only a little small. If scale was the same as it was in real life, a mouse's sword held by a very big otter would look more like a needle in said otter's paw than a large knife. Badgers could still be massive, though, as Mhera didn't even come up to Russano's waist when they were both standing.

I've never really given much thought to Redwall's size before, it's always shrunken or expanded in my imagination based on the context in the story. It's an interesting topic to consider.

[Hickory]

Interesting point!

hmmmm.

well, the abbey itself is incredibly large, having multiple time housed the abbey-dwellers from outside vermin. the books never seemed to put an estimate to the number of creatures in the abbey, but to include Mhera's point they did feed and house 500 hares for a few days, easily.

[Captain Tammo]

Another thing to keep in mind is that there are several scenes throughout the series where creatures venture beyond the walls to forage for food. So we can safely assume that while a great deal of the abbey's nutrition comes from its orchard and gardens, it did not provide all of it. This could also help explain why so many creatures could stay at the abbey at once.

[Mhera]

I always thought that when abbeydwellers left to forage outside it was for either medicinal herbs for the infirmary (I think that's what Tansy was doing at the beginning of Pearls of Lutra?) or as an excuse for an outing (like in the beginning of Triss), not out of necessity. I could be forgetting something though.

[Hickory]

Well, not that redwallers are religious, but many nuns who live in a monastary seldom left (not that I am a guru on the subject). redwall is supposed to be prosperous, that is why vermin constantly hear about and want the abbey. If they didn't live up to that, wel, theywould be the opposite of the current condition. And, think o the amount of cellarspace for the food! they could probably be used as rooms, since Abbot Humble and Lonna Bowstripe both used a cellar room as a place to rest.

[LT Sandpaw]

Another point is the wall height, its mentioned that the walls are massively tall, this is also supported by the fact that a ship could roll on though the gates easily. Including the massive height of the walls the building itself which is much taller then the walls would be a mighty height, I have heard tell of walls being 80 feet tall with 40 foot gates, That's a big wall, however I can not see Redwall's walls being that massive. I think they would be more around forty foot walls with maybe 10 foot gates.

[Albrithr]

Looking back on my original estimates, those probably were far too large. However, the only farming space mentioned is inside the walls, which makes sense since it is a place of refuge. Really, depends upon the size of the beasts of Mossflower. In real life, there is no way that a mouse could be even comparable in size to a beast that is able to wear a wolf's skull as headgear, so there is no constant ratio there. And, quite likely, the Redwallers are smaller than humans, because it is often mentioned that the trees of the forest hang over the Abbey walltops. There are few trees that grow more than forty feet.  However, due to scale differences, trees in Mossflower could also grow taller. 
If they are human-sized, then that is one big whale, even if my initial numbers were completely wrong.

[Hickory]

Looking back on my original estimates, those probably were far too large. However, the only farming space mentioned is inside the walls, which makes sense since it is a place of refuge. Really, depends upon the size of the beasts of Mossflower. In real life, there is no way that a mouse could be even comparable in size to a beast that is able to wear a wolf's skull as headgear, so there is no constant ratio there. And, quite likely, the Redwallers are smaller than humans, because it is often mentioned that the trees of the forest hang over the Abbey walltops. There are few trees that grow more than forty feet.  However, due to scale differences, trees in Mossflower could also grow taller. 
If they are human-sized, then that is one big whale, even if my initial numbers were completely wrong.

In the original book, they said that many farmers lived outside the wall, in the country side. These farmers, Ibelieve, supplied food to the Abbey. I think.

[Luftwaffles]

Can we really get to a definitive answer? To me it seems like it changed several times to serve the plot (in the TV series, of course). It is a REALLY interesting topic, but some of the episodes certainly gave me the impression that the Abbey wouldn't remain still in terms of size (the front yard seemed gigantic at the beginning of Season 2, when Slegar made his appearance, but wasn't like that on Season 1, when Matthias could it run it VERY fast).

My two rusty cents on this.