Vermin controlled territory/ families

[Sanddunes]

I've been wandering for awhile why there's not many vermin families especially in places where they were in-charged  now someplaces I could understand because they weren't there very long but you also have cases like the Green Isle where they were there for along and the only family really only mentioned is Riggu's

[Steelinghades]

I've been wandering for awhile why there's not many vermin families especially in places where they were in-charged  now someplaces I could understand because they weren't there very long but you also have cases like the Green Isle where they were there for along and the only family really only mentioned is Riggu's

Because we're not supposed to root for the vermin? (Though I know plenty of people that do) And thus, we're not given a lot of reasons to root for them.

[The Skarzs]

There was the ferret family in Triss, the cat family in High Rhulain, the fox family in Marlfox, Swartt and Veil, Ferahgo and his son in Salamandastron, Sela and Chickenhound in Redwall, the Greeneyes in Mossflower, and there were a couple other mentions of husbands and wives and children throughout the series.

Reading through The Outcast of Redwall right now, and it was stated that for some time Swartt's horde had a lot of females with children, because they were actually able to do that living under Bowfleg, who, incidentally, had a daughter who was Veil's mother.

While a lot of the known relationships of vermin families are known to be toxic, it is obvious families were pretty common- Either in places where there was a rooted vermin power, or out in the woods where they worked together to survive.

[Sanddunes]

There was the ferret family in Triss, the cat family in High Rhulain, the fox family in Marlfox, Swartt and Veil, Ferahgo and his son in Salamandastron, Sela and Chickenhound in Redwall, the Greeneyes in Mossflower, and there were a couple other mentions of husbands and wives and children throughout the series.

Reading through The Outcast of Redwall right now, and it was stated that for some time Swartt's horde had a lot of females with children, because they were actually able to do that living under Bowfleg, who, incidentally, had a daughter who was Veil's mother.

While a lot of the known relationships of vermin families are known to be toxic, it is obvious families were pretty common- Either in places where there was a rooted vermin power, or out in the woods where they worked together to survive.

My point is it's rare all the other families besides the The Outcast of Redwall were all main villain families and no one else at least none are mentioned. The reason why I mention Green Isle is because the Cats were there for a very long time since the time of Urthwyte

[Ashleg]

Probably because the series revolves around war, and the vermin are the attackers, and thus like in any army the majority are adult men and women without children. They have to be. They're in a horde. If Cluny had a bunch of babies and mothers to take care of it would slow him down tremendously.

[The Skarzs]

Which was stated in Outcast. Skarlath, when he was telling Sunflash about Swartt's movements, was saying that they're all adult fighters now, no more children. (Or something to that effect.)

[Sanddunes]

Which was stated in Outcast. Skarlath, when he was telling Sunflash about Swartt's movements, was saying that they're all adult fighters now, no more children. (Or something to that effect.)

What's sad about that is they might have all died

[Ashleg]

I am quite sure that is exactly what he meant. Them's' deads, yo.

[Sanddunes]

Probably because the series revolves around war, and the vermin are the attackers, and thus like in any army the majority are adult men and women without children. They have to be. They're in a horde. If Cluny had a bunch of babies and mothers to take care of it would slow him down tremendously.

What I'm saying is even in places where they live there's not many families at least not mentioned and even most of those weren't very long that's why I'm mostly focusing on the Green Isle

[Grond]

I've been wandering for awhile why there's not many vermin families especially in places where they were in-charged  now someplaces I could understand because they weren't there very long but you also have cases like the Green Isle where they were there for along and the only family really only mentioned is Riggu's

Its an interesting point. For roaming hordes of vermin it makes sense that there are no kids and the population of the horde isn't self sustaining. It increases in numbers either through impressment or from willing vermin who join it. I suspect its the most warlike and savage vermin, in their adult or near adult years, who end up joining the hordes.

But on the Green Isle, given the fact that it was a fairly isolated island, surrounded by a huge ocean, and thus no significant amount of "new blood" came in. That population must have been a self sustaining one, especially since the vermin had been there for, what in our years would probably be "centuries".

Because we're not supposed to root for the vermin? (Though I know plenty of people that do) And thus, we're not given a lot of reasons to root for them.

Yeah this is the reason Brian Jacques didn't include them. Vermin hordes typically get completely wiped out in the series, case in point the Green Isle. The kids would in that case either have to get killed too or they would be left orphaned and likely banished. It would bring in a whole other moral "grey area". For instance can you imagine a story line where a vermin chief or commander is seeking revenge against a "woodlander" or "woodland army-ie the Salamandastron hares" who left them orphaned. Or that vermin orphaned by war end up joining hordes for survival and belonging, as they are left with little choice. I think this would have been to much moral grey ground for BJ whose stories seemed to have black and white characters for the most part. Although it does ignore a very important consequence of war...

[Captain Tammo]

I think there are a few good points being tossed around. My belief is that it's because vermin families not the focus of the story. In fact, the only times when Brian talks about families are when they play a role in the story, or that relationship gets exploited in some hostage situation.

If Brian wrote about everyone's families more, it might seem like he's looking for filler as opposed to getting to the point of the story. I think one could make a similar case for Redwall. Even though we see lots of dibbuns within the walls (there's almost always a bunch of them scampering about in the story), we don't always see who their parents are. Usually they answer to a caretaker. True, since this is an abbey they could all be orphans. But Brian doesn't exactly touch on that either.

[Grond]

I think there are a few good points being tossed around. My belief is that it's because vermin families not the focus of the story. In fact, the only times when Brian talks about families are when they play a role in the story, or that relationship gets exploited in some hostage situation.

If Brian wrote about everyone's families more, it might seem like he's looking for filler as opposed to getting to the point of the story. I think one could make a similar case for Redwall. Even though we see lots of dibbuns within the walls (there's almost always a bunch of them scampering about in the story), we don't always see who their parents are. Usually they answer to a caretaker. True, since this is an abbey they could all be orphans. But Brian doesn't exactly touch on that either.

While I certainly agree with you that he couldn't go into detail about every dibbun or family; he does directly portray the existence of dibbuns or leverets, or the kids of woodlanders in general, in every book. Yet he rarely portrays vermin families and the few times he did they typically were not mentioned to have small children, rather fully grown or nearly mature kids. The only exception that I can recall of, where vermin Dibbuns are mentioned and depicted (Veil) is in the Outcast of Redwall. The existence of vermin children can for the most part be indirectly inferred from the existence of vermin themselves and the fact that it is stated that they came from mothers and fathers and thus must have at one point been born and been young. 

This to me speaks of a deeper motive for the near total exclusion of vermin "dibbuns" in the series...

[Captain Tammo]

While I certainly agree with you that he couldn't go into detail about every dibbun or family; he does directly portray the existence of dibbuns or leverets, or the kids of woodlanders in general, in every book. Yet he rarely portrays vermin families and the few times he did they typically were not mentioned to have small children, rather fully grown or nearly mature kids. The only exception that I can recall of, where vermin Dibbuns are mentioned and depicted (Veil) is in the Outcast of Redwall. The existence of vermin children can for the most part be indirectly inferred from the existence of vermin themselves and the fact that it is stated that they came from mothers and fathers and thus must have at one point been born and been young. 

This to me speaks of a deeper motive for the near total exclusion of vermin "dibbuns" in the series...

Hmm... Yeah, that's pretty well said, there. Perhaps you guys are right, then. Largely leaving out mention of vermin dibbuns might be a strategy in making the reader view them as - for lack of a better word - subhuman. It reinforces that the baddies are bad and goodies are good.