Villains that weren't really villains

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

Plugg Firetail was friendly with his crew. They showed genuine affection for him, and some openly wept at his death. Villain? Yes, defiantly.

Yoofus Lightpaw was a thief. I'd still call him as much a hero as any. There was no way he was ever going to hurt someone, and he cared for the weak and fought vermin.

[James Gryphon]

One other fact that I forgot to include is that he was friendly with his crew, a possible unique scenario for any type of vermin leader.

That is an interesting trait, and fairly rare among major vermin leaders, but it isn't entirely unique; there seem to possibly be a few similar situations:

Mossflower: It's implied that the Thousand Eyes army lived comfortably under Verdauga Greeneyes for many seasons. This doesn't necessarily indicate that the wildcat ruler himself was especially friendly, but I'm willing to bet that he got along pretty well with most of his troops. After all, they seemed to remember him fondly enough, and what we see of him in the book is pretty positive. (I know, I bring up Verdauga all the time, but he's probably one of my favorite characters.)
Mossflower: The mercenary fox Bane seems to have a solid rapport with his followers.
Pearls of Lutra: Although Romsca doesn't exactly count as a normal vermin anyway, all the interactions we see between her and her crew are positive. Also, Barranca in particular is loyal to and expects loyalty from his crew -- which is why he's so easily dispatched by Rasconza; he never saw that betrayal coming. Rasconza himself seems to get along very well with his followers too, for the most part.

I know this isn't exactly a massive list, but there are a few instances of vermin getting along well with their subordinates.

[Tiria Wildlough]

Plugg Firetail was friendly with his crew. They showed genuine affection for him, and some openly wept at his death. Villain? Yes, defiantly.

Yoofus Lightpaw was a thief. I'd still call him as much a hero as any. There was no way he was ever going to hurt someone, and he cared for the weak and fought vermin.

I HATE Yoofus Lightpaw! He makes me so MAD!!!! When Skipper pulled him through the water by his tail, I was almost glad.
I also hate the vole in Eulalia. He acts like a spoiled brat.

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

Yoofus Lightpaw. Annoyance, yes, and very cheeky. Also a vermin-fighter and hero. Did for his own good maybe, but he added a lot to the book. Didn't like him myself. And then there's Wild Doogy Plumm, a braw highlander dealing with a claymore-thief. Those were pretty funny scenes with them, mainly only when they looted, as an understatement, the vermin camp. xD

And what vote? What are you talking about?


@James Gryphon: Good points. Pearls of Lutra had a lot of loyalty in it, and also plenty of backstabbing.

[daskar666]

I'd say Yoofus Lightpaw was one of my favorite characters, simplt because he wasn't the epitome for traditional morality. The vole in Eulalia!, well, I'm still reading the book, and yes, I agree that he acted like a spoiled brat, but a significant part of it is most likely due to his hostile treatment and banishment by the Redwallers.

[James Gryphon]

I have to say that I'm inclined to agree with Daskar on this -- yes, Yoofus can be "annoying", in that he is an obstacle to the main protagonists, but he's still essentially a heroic character, and I think the story is made more interesting by the fact that he isn't yet perfect. Having a kleptomaniac hero keeps things interesting.

I feel it's important to have some sort of conflict or development in the heroes' side too -- and having a perfect, happy team of mice, squirrels, hares, etc. that never disagree with each other, make mistakes, or are ever in any mood but nonchalant, jolly, or grim, would just make the heroes... well, a little boring.

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

I feel it's important to have some sort of conflict or development in the heroes' side too -- and having a perfect, happy team of mice, squirrels, hares, etc. that never disagree with each other, make mistakes, or are ever in any mood but nonchalant, jolly, or grim, would just make the heroes... well, a little boring.

I would say they wasn't the case. Most groups of heroes did disagree at a stage, and did present in their book mistakes.

Also, Yoofus Lighpaw's main problematic trait, at least to me, was his tendency to halter the heroes in their pursuits.

[daskar666]

Also, Yoofus Lighpaw's main problematic trait, at least to me, was his tendency to halter the heroes in their pursuits.

Which simply means that he was not a moral drone, and had his own goals besides resolving the main conflict. Making both the story and the character increasingly complex.

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

Yeah, and I'd say it was his most problematic trait.

[James Gryphon]

If there's any major problem with that book, I think, it's that the villains don't really pose the heroes a threat, up until the very end. Tam, Lightpaw, et all can easily sneak into the villain camp any time they need to, the villains are hopeless at tracking them, and the Redwall equivalent of the  Stormtrooper Effect means that even if they were to get caught there's no need to feel any particular fear or concern for them, since the heroes can fight their way out without any problems.

With all that in mind, Yoofus is a necessary plot obstacle because most of the time, he gives the heroes more trouble than Gulo or his army. If you don't have him in the story, the villains have to be beefed up because otherwise the story is a cakewalk.

Anyway, I don't think it's fair to describe the main characters as "moral drones" -- there's nothing at all wrong with someone being a good guy -- but at the same time, it doesn't mean that Yoofus is a bad character either, just because of his relative disinterest in the main conflict and kleptomaniac tendencies, and it does make the story a bit more complex.

Most groups of heroes did disagree at a stage, and did present in their book mistakes.

Well, there are a few mistakes, but nothing that generally causes the heroes any real long-lasting harm -- instead it's something that another character immediately comes and bails them out of... like in Mariel of Redwall, where the heroes let themselves get trapped by the Flitcheye, but because Martin supernaturally told them to call for help, the owl comes and saves them, thus getting them safely through trouble, even they weren't paying enough attention to keep themselves out of danger.

Likewise, Viola Bankvole and Welko in Pearls of Lutra were on the verge of being overrun by vermin, because the heroes perhaps didn't take their safety into account like they might have in their planning -- but they get bailed out at the last minute when the seals come to save them, something that the heroes didn't know about at all.

As for the disagreements, I think I might have an idea of a case or two, but if you wouldn't mind, I would appreciate some examples?

[daskar666]

The other 2 characters who are not villains/gray are Groddil and Askor.
Yes, Groddil ordered part of the blue hordes to attack Stonepaw but only because he was ordered to come down into Salamandastron's dungeons by Ungatt Trunn and wanted to survive in the midst of Stonepaw's bloodwrath. He also seemed to want vengeance not only for himself but for his family, which is unusual among vermin.
Askor, was bound by his land's moral code, and still managed to be cooperative with Jem and Walt. He also was trying to prevent Gulo from getting the walking stone, making him a gray character bordering on protagonism. True he said he'd kill Jem and Walt if they came closer, but like I said, it's most likely because of the society he was born into, and he did warn them not to approach.

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

Groddil. Gray? For one thing, vermin don't have a problem with getting revenge for fallen comrades. Many wanted to. Look at Mokkan, he swore to kill ten Redwallers for a slain river rat under his command, and twenty for his slain sibling. Many mates wanting revenge for slain partners.
Also on Groddil. Hated, utterly hated, Ungatt Trunn. How in the world that makes him gray, I couldn't come close to saying.
And saving your own skin doesn't make somebeast gray. It makes them self-concerned. Not particulary a bad thing.
Beyond that, Groddil watched many die, and served as the closest adviser of Ungatt Trunn. He tricked the wildcat all the time, and got his revenge by washing him out to see. Good scene, very well done.
As for being gray, no. By no means.

Askor.
Society is not the concern. Tagg/Veil, not affected. He was born a dangerous and treasonous wolverine. That he was. I personally like the guy. He was a cannibal for certain. Cannibalism isn't exactly the thing to get nailed. on the hero side of things.
I don't see what more there is to say on either, they're not gray.

[daskar666]

Groddil. Gray? For one thing, vermin don't have a problem with getting revenge for fallen comrades. Many wanted to. Look at Mokkan, he swore to kill ten Redwallers for a slain river rat under his command, and twenty for his slain sibling. Many mates wanting revenge for slain partners.
Also on Groddil. Hated, utterly hated, Ungatt Trunn. How in the world that makes him gray, I couldn't come close to saying.
And saving your own skin doesn't make somebeast gray. It makes them self-concerned. Not particulary a bad thing.
Beyond that, Groddil watched many die, and served as the closest adviser of Ungatt Trunn. He tricked the wildcat all the time, and got his revenge by washing him out to see. Good scene, very well done.
As for being gray, no. By no means.

Askor.
Society is not the concern. Tagg/Veil, not affected. He was born a dangerous and treasonous wolverine. That he was. I personally like the guy. He was a cannibal for certain. Cannibalism isn't exactly the thing to get nailed. on the hero side of things.
I don't see what more there is to say on either, they're not gray.

On your points about Groddil tricking and hating Trunn, the protagonists do that to villains all the time.  The part about saving his own skin though, doesn't point to the fact that he's gray, it simply shows that he didn't really have anything against the protagonist, and the only thing that suggests he's a villain is the fact that he's a fox.
Veil was certainly affected by his society. The entire population of Redwall, with the exception of Bryony, hated him, and Bryony was the only character for whom he showed love. On the main subject of Askor however, yes, he was dangerous. Badgers are also inherently dangerous. Both Askor and a few of the badgers in the series warned non-badger heroes about themselves being dangerous, instead of just killing them in Bloodwrath or eating them. But treacherous? The only character Askor commited treason to is Gulo the Savage, furthermore doing it for the good cause. As for cannibalism, killing for food could have been needed for the wolverine to survive, and his dislike of Gulo suggests that he didn't just kill and eat indiscriminantly like Gulo did.

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

First of all, Askor not liking Gulo doesn't mean he doesn't like to eat people.
I can't say I followed that reasoning.

Groddil: At basic, him being a fox, unless noted otherwise, makes him a villain. That's the way Redwall works. Beyond that, Groddil not being in direct participation to Ungatt Trunn's Blue Hordes for half the novel doesn't make him a hero. As there's no middle ground between villaincy and heroship, he's easily classed as villain.

Same for Askor, he's not a hero, classing him as villain.

[daskar666]

there's no middle ground between villaincy and heroship

Please elaborate.