Argulor

[James Gryphon]

Argulor is one of my favorite characters. I consider him to be the greatest (most powerful) bird in the series, he's one of the few creatures who could be directly classified as gray (although, considering that we only ever see him hunt and kill villains, one could make the argument that he's actually kind of good), and he eats for survival, not out of malice. He had a healthy relationship of mutual respect with Verdauga Greeneyes, who is the series' best warlord.

Add in that he's aging -- implying vast experience, albeit with some of the infirmities that inevitably accompany seniority -- and his quirky desire to taste pine marten, and you have a complete character. His fight and win over Bane is one of my favorites, like I mentioned in my "Best Fights" topic.

Anyone else have anything to say about this cool golden eagle?

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

Argulor is also a favorite of mine. He's beast, somewhat classy, and amazingly well portrayed.

But he most certainly is not gray. He is a villain. He ate, and thus killed, many creatures. Whether hero or villain, is beside the point. He was neutral, yes. But not gray. Asmodeus was neutral, but not gray. He is something-ish of a bystander, you might say. He is out of the struggle for Mossflower, all he wanted was to taste pine marten.
LordTBT posted an essay on the Redwall Abbey, entitled Asmodeus something. I don't remember the name, but it was in response to an essay about Asmodeus being neutral/gray. He, like Argulor, was not gray, but neutral.

I was actually kind of sad when he died, I liked the guy a lot. And Ashleg, I liked him too. It was one of those struggles when you wanted it to always continue with out end. Because end meant tragedy.


Essay mentioned:
http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Essay:Asmodeus%27_Neutrality:A_Rebuttal

[James Gryphon]

I read both the original essay and the rebuttal, and I agree that Asmodeus is clearly a villain, but I'm not sure that applying the same title to Argulor is quite fair.

In the rebuttal of Asmodeus' greyness, it is mentioned that in addition to being repeatedly called and referred to by titles that suggest evil, that he possesses three traits:

* Indiscriminate killing of vermin and goodbeasts by devouring or hypnotizing
* Collection of trinkets from victims
* Accumulation of attractive objects that are not his property

Argulor does not collect anything from any of his prey, so it's pretty clear that he isn't a thief, unlike Asmodeus, which automatically writes off the latter two points.

The first point, I would say isn't quite valid because Argulor is only recorded as killing villains -- the various rats, weasels, etc.  While Chibb the Robin was afraid of him, Argulor never did any harm to him, and we never see or hear of him attempting to prey on the squirrels, otters, or mice, even when he could have done so. This is contrary to Asmodeus, who indiscriminately kills everything in sight. Matthias had to kill Asmodeus to survive; there is no similar scene where a hero is threatened by Argulor, at any point in the story, nor is it stated that he has definitely attacked woodlanders in the past.

I would say that his killing creatures is simply for survival, unlike Asmodeus, who clearly takes a twisted pleasure in hypnotizing his prey before consuming them. Killing creatures alone shouldn't be considered an evil trait, if it is a necessary part of the animal's diet.

For instance, in Redwall, we see Matthias killing a fish (to be specific, a grayling) in the first part of the book -- which Abbot Mortimer states as being acceptable, since it was only "for a meal to make".

Likewise, the Corim pike Stormfin devoured the Gloomer, and it seems implied that the otters kept him around just for that kind of situation. The story itself casts Stormfin in a heroic light, in his battle with the villainous water rat, so clearly nobody has any qualms about him eating another creature.

Finally, Snakefish devoured hordes of (sentient) villainous toads. When he mentions that he will have to eat the heroes (Martin, Gonff, and Dinny) if they can't come up with an escape plan, they themselves don't seem to hold a grudge against him for that.

These three examples all seem to indicate cases where living creatures -- in some cases, sentient beings -- were killed and consumed, and the book doesn't regard the ones who did it as being particularly evil or of low moral character.

Considering the golden eagle is carnivorous in real life, it stands to reason that Argulor would have to kill something if he wanted to continue living, so it seems fair to me that he should be regarded in the same way as the other characters above, and considered to be gray -- if not necessarily good.

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

Argulor was crazy over tasting a pine marten. That gives him an interest in wanting to take pleasure in killing, he was fantasing (sp) over eating such an animal. Also, as pine marten was regarded as the only thing he hadn't eaten, he probably ate some peaceful woodlanders over his life. No doubt a good deal. Also, I wasn't comparing him to Asmodues in the remotest degree. As such, I was not using any point in that essay to analyze Argulor's villaincy.

Argulor was not a gray character. His nature is clearly against that. His thoughts reflected he might have eaten Chibb if the robin had stayed about. A gray character is the following: a normally villain or hero race member that is against their normal breed and sides on the opposite spectrum. Gray characters are not characters that are both good and bad, no such characters exist in the series. Just pointing that last statement out, btw.
Blaggut was gray. He was a rat, rats are almost always bad.
Argulor serves as an eagle. Eagles are very varied, and good/bad, hero/villain is almost split equal. Thus, we discern Argulor by his actions.
-Killing and feasting on creatures as he pleases.
Any chance of that being good? I think not.

As a final point, let's look at Zassaliss and his two siblings.
They killed and maliciously devoured both heroes and villains. Argulor ate villains and heroes as well. They are all certainly villains. As such, your point on Argulor's grayity being judged based on equal treatment of villains and heroes is void. He, like the adders (including Asmodeus, and actually, all adders) was an independent force.

[James Gryphon]

Argulor was crazy over tasting a pine marten. That gives him an interest in wanting to take pleasure in killing, he was fantasing (sp) over eating such an animal.

Fantasizing.

Well, if you're going to eat something anyway, it might as well at least be tasty.

Also, as pine marten was regarded as the only thing he hadn't eaten, he probably ate some peaceful woodlanders over his life.

Unfortunately, I don't have my battered copy of Mossflower handy to research Argulor. I do recall that in the book; however, it's possible that he might have decided against eating woodlanders at some point. As it is, I'll have to concede this point, that it is possible and even probable that Argulor ate woodlanders at some point prior to Mossflower. However, I must still note that in the actual book, we don't see him kill any good characters -- even in the case of Chibb, the only part I remember (thanks to it being on the wiki) is his pondering whether he's getting slower or the small birds are getting faster.

That doesn't preclude the possibility that he would've eaten Chibb if he could've, but at the same time, it could just be musing over the relative speeds of animals. I myself've had similar thoughts when little kids dart around my legs.

... I wasn't comparing him to Asmodues in the remotest degree. As such, I was not using any point in that essay to analyze Argulor's villaincy.

Well, it seems to me that when you post a link to an essay about Asmodeus being, in fact, a villain, and say that just as Asmodeus is neutral (not gray), neither is Argulor, that you intend for at least some of the points mentioned in that article to be relevant to the discussion.

-Killing and feasting on creatures as he pleases.

Remember that the three examples I listed in my last post (the Redwallers, Stormfin, and Snakefish) all did the same thing, and are yet well or neutrally regarded.

Try not to take this too seriously; I'm just having some fun playing eagle's advocate, and having one of the first debates here.

[Taggerung_of_Redwall]

On the subject of Asmodeus and Argulor being compared, I meant only both were indepednet forces. Not along the lines of them being similar beyond that.

I was overly stating my point in my last post.


edit: I'm not taking this too seriosuly. It's been a long time since I've argued, I'm liking this tremednously.

[Tiria Wildlough]

I don't blame Argulor for wanting pine marten. I looked up pine martens on the internet and found that one of their only predators are golden eagles.

[James Gryphon]

I looked up pine martens on the internet and found that one of their only predators are golden eagles.

Coincidentally, the only other predator they have happens to be the red fox -- e.g., Rasconza.

It's almost as though Brian Jacques looked up the Wikipedia article on pine martens when he was writing Mossflower and Pearls of Lutra.

[Tiria Wildlough]

Funny! Totally off topic, but I looked up otters, and they are called 'Enhydra lutris' (or something like that) hence Pearls of Lutra!

[Nightfire]

Lutra is actually the Latin word for otter, as is stated by Mr. Jacques at the back of his book. And yes Brian did look up the characteristics of the animals before he wrote about them. And thirdly, I agree with James Gryphon.

[Coobreedan]

It's not fair. He never got to eat pine marten. 

[HeadInAnotherGalaxy]

Aye, an; Asleg got awa' zafely, or at leazt az far az we ken.

[Nightfire]

I like to think that Ashleg went off into the forest and lived out the rest of his days as a peaceful woodlander, growing all his own food and living honestly.

[Log-a-Log]

Although Stryk Redkite is a kite, and Argulor is a golden eagle, maybe Stryk is a distant relative of Argulor since they are both from the mountains and they are both fierce birds of prey

[James Gryphon]

That seems doubtful; I'm not sure that kites and eagles can really mate, so I'm not sure where their bloodlines would have merged, and besides most great birds of prey prefer mountain residences, so it isn't an unusual coincidence that they would've come from mountainous regions.

It's also worth noting that Styrk Redkite came from the north, whereas Argulor, before returning to his "vacation home" in Mossflower, used to preside over the mountains somewhere in the west. Those're somewhat different regions.