who would win?

[Log-a-Log]

I think the probable reason why Swartt isn't ranked up there is because we never see him perform any feats.

All of the great villains have some accomplishment, or some implied strength -- Gabool destroyed Saltar (who was also a renowned duelist) in a swordfight, and it's implied that he took out tons of others in his corsair career. Tsarmina's a wildcat, which automatically puts her up a notch, just because she's larger than just about everyone else (also, cats are born killers; anyone who owns an "outside" cat can testify to this). Cluny is simply loaded with feats -- "Cluny lost an eye. The pike lost its life!", the whip-like tail, the incredibly long career of destruction and devastation prior to Redwall, nearly beating Matthias in spite of going up against Martin's sword with just an iron churchyard spike, etc. Ferahgo, in addition to longevity, easily killed several badgers, and we get to see him nearly do it again, plus he survived the scalding water and effortlessly foiled an attempted assassination. Even Ublaz got to hypnotize several beasts.

Whereas Swartt is more like a younger Sawney Rath -- more of a political leader than a physical one (though Sawney got to kill the original Gruven). While it's implied that Swartt is physically dangerous (what with the armored sixclaw and all of that), we never get to see him smack down anyone except with his wits.

I think that plays a role in his ranking -- if we had a scene where we got to, say, see Swartt massacre toads in the marshlands, that might help him a little.

The only problem with Gabool killing Saltar was that he hid the dagger and then pushed saltar into it, so it wasn't really a clean kill

[James Gryphon]

True, but Gabool's swordplay, that we saw, was still significant.

While one would think losing should come naturally, the fact is that doing it well enough to convince everyone (including Saltar) that he was genuinely hard-pressed, while not actually letting Saltar do anything to hurt him (as a genuine amateur might allow), and leading Saltar exactly to where he wanted him, ironically requires some serious skill.

It's true that it wasn't clean, but I'd say it's still convincing proof that he's the real deal in swordfights.

[Captain Tammo]

I guess you could say I never really thought of Gabool as that good. I mean I thought his insanity always got in the way of things

[sabretache5611]

I think the probable reason why Swartt isn't ranked up there is because we never see him perform any feats.

All of the great villains have some accomplishment, or some implied strength -- Gabool destroyed Saltar (who was also a renowned duelist) in a swordfight, and it's implied that he took out tons of others in his corsair career. Tsarmina's a wildcat, which automatically puts her up a notch, just because she's larger than just about everyone else (also, cats are born killers; anyone who owns an "outside" cat can testify to this). Cluny is simply loaded with feats -- "Cluny lost an eye. The pike lost its life!", the whip-like tail, the incredibly long career of destruction and devastation prior to Redwall, nearly beating Matthias in spite of going up against Martin's sword with just an iron churchyard spike, etc. Ferahgo, in addition to longevity, easily killed several badgers, and we get to see him nearly do it again, plus he survived the scalding water and effortlessly foiled an attempted assassination. Even Ublaz got to hypnotize several beasts.

Whereas Swartt is more like a younger Sawney Rath -- more of a political leader than a physical one (though Sawney got to kill the original Gruven). While it's implied that Swartt is physically dangerous (what with the armored sixclaw and all of that), we never get to see him smack down anyone except with his wits.

I think that plays a role in his ranking -- if we had a scene where we got to, say, see Swartt massacre toads in the marshlands, that might help him a little.

I totally agree. While I loved swartt as a character, he didnt do much as a "Fighter" type leader, He was definately a political guy. For example, instead of fighting Balefur as a Cluny, Tsarmina, or others might have done, he he killed him with deciet and strategy. Swartt is the Fidel Castro of Mossflower

You're all right.  He actually never delivered a physical smackdown on someone, just a LOT of poisonings, trickery and pushing people out of the way.  I wouldn't say hes Fidel Castro cause Castro is more than above Swartt.

[sabretache5611]

I guess you could say I never really thought of Gabool as that good. I mean I thought his insanity always got in the way of things

Problem is we've never seen Gabool fight when he's sane.  Except for the part where he fought with the Crabclaw's captain, and thats described in Mariel's memory so we don't get a very clear picture.

[Lutra]

We didn't hear much about him, and he didn't live long for us to find out what he could really do, but I think Bane the fox would've come out victorious.  They knew how to survive and win in the open, have plenty of supplies, and no apparent fighting within the army.  I'd say he'd do the best in charge of 100 and had to battle it out.

[Captain Tammo]

Probably, but this is the MAIN villains from each book. I made a list a couple of pages back of the main villains. If there are any errors on it or anyone wants to add or take off anything just say so and I'll do it.

[Nightfire]

I think Askor would win. He isn't as big as Gulo, but he's definitely faster, more agile, and more intelligent.

[James Gryphon]

I guess you could say I never really thought of Gabool as that good. I mean I thought his insanity always got in the way of things

Problem is we've never seen Gabool fight when he's sane.  Except for the part where he fought with the Crabclaw's captain, and thats described in Mariel's memory so we don't get a very clear picture.

Remember, just because he's crazy doesn't mean that he's stupid. In level of exhibited competence, I'd say he ranks up there among Redwall villains, even if he isn't mentally stable for 90% of the story.

We see Graypatch masterfully kill off Bigfang, and I'd say Gabool is very probably much stronger, and probably also more skilled than his subordinate... Saltar was said to be a legendary duelist, but Gabool holds him off without any trouble; easily enough to have the ability and the time to deliberately fake it being a hard fight. Though he did cheat to kill Saltar, that just shows his tactical competence; like Stonefleck in Mattimeo, Gabool doesn't take unnecessary chances, and that's bound to help him as much as anything else. How many villains are there that didn't die from some degree of overconfidence? Even Cluny was offed because he was too focused on what he thought was a sure thing, and ignored the possibility of Matthias chopping down the bell.

[sabretache5611]

I guess you could say I never really thought of Gabool as that good. I mean I thought his insanity always got in the way of things

Problem is we've never seen Gabool fight when he's sane.  Except for the part where he fought with the Crabclaw's captain, and thats described in Mariel's memory so we don't get a very clear picture.

Remember, just because he's crazy doesn't mean that he's stupid. In level of exhibited competence, I'd say he ranks up there among Redwall villains, even if he isn't mentally stable for 90% of the story.

We see Graypatch masterfully kill off Bigfang, and I'd say Gabool is very probably much stronger, and probably also more skilled than his subordinate... Saltar was said to be a legendary duelist, but Gabool holds him off without any trouble; easily enough to have the ability and the time to deliberately fake it being a hard fight. Though he did cheat to kill Saltar, that just shows his tactical competence; like Stonefleck in Mattimeo, Gabool doesn't take unnecessary chances, and that's bound to help him as much as anything else. How many villains are there that didn't die from some degree of overconfidence? Even Cluny was offed because he was too focused on what he thought was a sure thing, and ignored the possibility of Matthias chopping down the bell.

Point taken.  Gabool is ranked pretty high among Redwall's villains.  however, its really hard to graps the full scope of his power because he is insane as you said, 90% of the time in the book.

[Captain Tammo]

What do you guys think of Vilu Daskar or Riggu Felis?

[Leatho Shellhound]

I think Ungatt Trunn.

Than Riggu Felis

Than Vilu Daskar

[Captain Tammo]

Just to refresh everyone's memory of the villains again so they don't have to look them up or forget any

Redwall: Cluny the Scourge
Mossflower: Tsarmina Greeneyes
Mattimeo: Slagar the Cruel
Mariel of Redwall: Gabool the Wild
Salamandastron: Ferhago the Assassin
Martin the Warrior: Badrang the Tyrant
The Bellmaker: The Urgan Nagru
Outcast of Redwall: Swart Sixclaw
Pearls of Lutra: Ublaz Madeyes
The Long Patrol: Damug Warfang
Marlfox: there's many marlfoxes, let's go with Mokan
The Legend of Luke: Vilu Daskar
Lord Brocktree: Ungatt Trunn
Taggerung: The Juska tribe
Triss: Princess Kurda
Loamhedge: Raga Bol AND I guess you could say Kharanjul
Rakkety Tam: Gulo the Savage
High Rhulain: Riggu Felis
Eulalia!: Vizka Longtooth
Doomwyte: Korvus Skurr
The Sable Quean: Vilaya the Sable Quean
The Rogue Crew: Razzid Wearat

[daskar666]

Or what I feel is more appropriate...
Taggerung: Vallug Bowbeast
Loamhedge: Raga Bol. Kharanjul is a minor villain (since he was completely absent until the end).

[Captain Tammo]

O i changed it but I left Kharanjul in there because he was the villain at the final battle. If you guys still want him off the list, I'll take him out for you