who would win?

[Tungro]

While Cluny could not take Redwall I believe it was because of the major advantages one has when defending a fortification, also his troops where pretty incompetent. In my opinion Trunn only one because of superior forces and weight of numbers. In an open and equal fight I believe Cluny would triumph in the end.

[The Witessss]

I have to agree with that.. Cluny seems a bit of a more skilled fighter and thinker, whereas Trunn often dicided things on what his seers said, but then again, Cluny lost to a mouse and Trunn lost to a badger.. so .. I can see both sides (I know it wasn't any ordinary mouse, but still a mouse)

[Ouroboros]

While Cluny could not take Redwall I believe it was because of the major advantages one has when defending a fortification, also his troops where pretty incompetent. In my opinion Trunn only one because of superior forces and weight of numbers. In an open and equal fight I believe Cluny would triumph in the end.

While Trunn definitely had more manpower, the mountain was still a far harder nut to crack than the abbey. You could hardly take it by throwing said manpower into a grinder; an understanding of strategy would be necessary. Not to mention the fact that you said yourself about the incompetence of Cluny's troops, suggesting that he's a pretty bad leader in terms of keeping discipline and actually training soldiers correctly.

If both had 100 soldiers, Cluny will lose his army because he can't train and discipline them properly. The best he could hope for is mutually assured destruction of the armies, which puts him on a 1v1 footing with Trunn, which he will also most likely lose. Consider that wildcats are the badger's equal; how many villains have managed to take down a badger by themselves in a legitimate fight (killing old feeble ones, overwhelming them with numbers, shooting them from a distance, etc don't count). I actually don't know, as its been a while since I ever read any of the books, but I'd wager the number is quite slim.

I think Cluny has poison as an advantage, but even then, I don't think he's going to win in any way. The only outcomes I can see are Trunn crushing him easily, or a mutual army wipeout followed by a 1 on 1 fight where either Ungatt wins, or Ungatt wins but dies of poison..

[Tungro]

True... but for some reason I can't bring myself to agree...

[The Witessss]

of all creatures I think the hare for Hight Rhulain was a pretty fierce warrior, too.. (yes, the insane one.. Cuthburt? was that his name?) he wouldn't win 1 v1 wildcat, I can guarantee it, but still he seemed like a true skilled (had some damaging mental problems) at killing things (ie the ship of vermin)

[Ouroboros]

True... but for some reason I can't bring myself to agree...

Nostalgia. Cluny is insanely popular because he was the first villain. I will agree that he is definitely above average, as he actually managed to make it through the Abbey walls, something not every villain has managed, but he's still not the best. He falls into the problem most of the sub-par antagonists have, actually, of being effective strategists but poor leaders of "men."

If he didn't fall into the usual trap of delegating to idiots or being unnecessarily cruel for arbitrary purposes to his underlings, he would probably be one of the very best, though a fight between a smaller antagonist and a wildcat will always be dubious, as unless Cluny becomes such a master leader that he's able to steamroll over Trunn's army and surround him with like 50 rats, he still has to deal with the equivalent of a badger coming at him, which will hardly ever end well.

[Tungro]

While Trunn definitely had more manpower, the mountain was still a far harder nut to crack than the abbey. You could hardly take it by throwing said manpower into a grinder; an understanding of strategy would be necessary. Not to mention the fact that you said yourself about the incompetence of Cluny's troops, suggesting that he's a pretty bad leader in terms of keeping discipline and actually training soldiers correctly.

If both had 100 soldiers, Cluny will lose his army because he can't train and discipline them properly. The best he could hope for is mutually assured destruction of the armies, which puts him on a 1v1 footing with Trunn, which he will also most likely lose. Consider that wildcats are the badger's equal; how many villains have managed to take down a badger by themselves in a legitimate fight (killing old feeble ones, overwhelming them with numbers, shooting them from a distance, etc don't count). I actually don't know, as its been a while since I ever read any of the books, but I'd wager the number is quite slim.

I think Cluny has poison as an advantage, but even then, I don't think he's going to win in any way. The only outcomes I can see are Trunn crushing him easily, or a mutual army wipeout followed by a 1 on 1 fight where either Ungatt wins, or Ungatt wins but dies of poison.

While you have a valid point, Salamandastron was only defended by about two score old hares and Redwall was defended by young, determined, and hardy fighters. So Cluny had a much harder time and still did a good job while Trunn got it easy

[Cornflower MM]

If I may, I'd also like to point that Salamandastron is a literal mountain/volcano with few entrances, while the Abbey is.... Not. Four gates, plus the walls don't go up to the sky. I'd rather be in Salamandastron with 40 older hares and Badger Lord than the Abbey with more young beasts who aren't trained.

[The Witessss]

good point, there..

[Tungro]

Hmm.....
...Might take a little more to change my mind...

[Ouroboros]

While you have a valid point, Salamandastron was only defended by about two score old hares and Redwall was defended by young, determined, and hardy fighters. So Cluny had a much harder time and still did a good job while Trunn got it easy

Corn makes a good point. The Long Patrol, weak as it was, was still trained to resist assaults. I would also argue that while the defenders of Redwall were young and determined, I would not call them hardy fighters.

Very rarely, if at all have the inhabitants of the abbey ever had a pitched battle. They have three strategies to stay alive: 1) Fling things over the walls periodically and hope their attackers will be destroyed by infighting and stupid plans, 2) send out the invincible pre-teen heroes to go decapitate the attackers' leadership, or 3) hope for divine intervention and/or blind luck.

Realistically, taking the Abbey would not be very difficult compared to the mountain, yet the mountain has been taken several times and the Abbey has never fallen properly because the plot demands it.

For example, here's my ideal ways of taking both:

The Mountain, the more difficult target, can really only be taken through two ways: a surrender after a prolonged siege that starves the defenders (difficult and time-consuming, they could have years of food in there), or send somebody in through one of the few windows to go and open a gate, which relies on them not getting seen.

The Abbey is easier. There are more options, the inhabitants have no real weapons aside from one sword, maybe a few bows, and whatever makeshift weapons they can make. It's been tried before to burn down the gates, to which the inhabitants pour something over the walls, and the plan is never done again. Why is beyond me, because if you just have archers in the trees to shoot anyone on the walls, you stop them doing that. If you don't have archers, burn every gate at once so that they can't respond to all of the threats in time. If you can't make fire, use an axe or a battering ram. If they try and stop you from the walltops, shoot them.

The Abbey is quite open, and it has no proper fighting force at any time. If you can get an army inside the walls, they won't fight to the end like in, say, the mountain, because few if any will have ever been in a fight. Most of its population are infirm or infants. Cluny, and most of the other villains, really have it easy. But they give up on a plan the second it gets foiled once, even if it would succeed with a few tweaks. Trunn had an easier time than most taking the mountain, as it was less defended than usual, but the fact still remains that it has better defenses than the Abbey, and even with the hares being old, they'd still be trained to fight, unlike the old animals inside the church, or the babies. If you get inside the Abbey, you kill their resident badger and a few otters, and they surrender or die (unless a magical ten year old shows up and kills you).

[The Witessss]

total agreement.

[Tungro]

Hmm... Valid point

[Steelinghades]

Corn makes a good point. The Long Patrol, weak as it was, was still trained to resist assaults. I would also argue that while the defenders of Redwall were young and determined, I would not call them hardy fighters.

Very rarely, if at all have the inhabitants of the abbey ever had a pitched battle. They have three strategies to stay alive: 1) Fling things over the walls periodically and hope their attackers will be destroyed by infighting and stupid plans, 2) send out the invincible pre-teen heroes to go decapitate the attackers' leadership, or 3) hope for divine intervention and/or blind luck.

Realistically, taking the Abbey would not be very difficult compared to the mountain, yet the mountain has been taken several times and the Abbey has never fallen properly because the plot demands it.

For example, here's my ideal ways of taking both:

The Mountain, the more difficult target, can really only be taken through two ways: a surrender after a prolonged siege that starves the defenders (difficult and time-consuming, they could have years of food in there), or send somebody in through one of the few windows to go and open a gate, which relies on them not getting seen.

The Abbey is easier. There are more options, the inhabitants have no real weapons aside from one sword, maybe a few bows, and whatever makeshift weapons they can make. It's been tried before to burn down the gates, to which the inhabitants pour something over the walls, and the plan is never done again. Why is beyond me, because if you just have archers in the trees to shoot anyone on the walls, you stop them doing that. If you don't have archers, burn every gate at once so that they can't respond to all of the threats in time. If you can't make fire, use an axe or a battering ram. If they try and stop you from the walltops, shoot them.

The Abbey is quite open, and it has no proper fighting force at any time. If you can get an army inside the walls, they won't fight to the end like in, say, the mountain, because few if any will have ever been in a fight. Most of its population are infirm or infants. Cluny, and most of the other villains, really have it easy. But they give up on a plan the second it gets foiled once, even if it would succeed with a few tweaks. Trunn had an easier time than most taking the mountain, as it was less defended than usual, but the fact still remains that it has better defenses than the Abbey, and even with the hares being old, they'd still be trained to fight, unlike the old animals inside the church, or the babies. If you get inside the Abbey, you kill their resident badger and a few otters, and they surrender or die (unless a magical ten year old shows up and kills you).

The mountain is not a harder target, Its size makes it an easier target, the abbey's smaller size helps it. To defend the mountain you need a corresponding large army or the enemiy force is just going to storm one of the numerous windows or one of the entrances.

You do point out that the abbey has no standing military force, which doesn't mean much since many armies historically weren't standing ones, and while this is true and puts them at a disadvantage against proper armies, only one of those exist in the form of the Long Patrol. Both Cluny and Trunn--not trunk you spellchecker--lack professional fighting forces. Trunn took the mountain because he massively outnumbered e defenders and they were all old and incapable of fighting properly anymore. Cluny did not massively outnumber his foes, he was dealing with roughly comparable odds, the deck was stacked against him and despite that he very nearly won.

[Ouroboros]

The mountain is not a harder target, Its size makes it an easier target, the abbey's smaller size helps it. False. As previously stated, the Abbey is open. It has many, many different entrances, all of which are guarded by no more than a wooden gate, and if you make it over the walls, those are irrelevant.. The mountain, as far as I recall, has one entrance plus a few windows, the only ones I actually remember hearing about being in the badger's room, and the caves on the beach. To defend the mountain you need a corresponding large army or the enemy force is just going to storm one of the numerous windows or one of the entrances.

You do point out that the abbey has no standing military force, which doesn't mean much since many armies historically weren't standing ones, and while this is true and puts them at a disadvantage against proper armies, only one of those exist in the form of the Long Patrol. While this is true, my point wasn't that they don't have a standing army, it's that they're not fighters. They live in a church, if there's no otters or shrews visiting when they get attacked, they have no able fighters and almost no weapons (outside the sword, pots of hot water, and rocks). It should not be difficult whatsoever to take a target that can't defend itself, but because of plot armour and the stupidy of most villains, it never really happens. Both Cluny and Trunn--not trunk you spellchecker--lack professional fighting forces. I would argue that Trunn's force is more professional than Cluny's. There's more focus on loyalty and discipline, and more competent commanders. Trunn's soldiers don't keep trying to backstab each other like Cluny's do. Trunn took the mountain because he massively outnumbered the defenders and they were all old and incapable of fighting properly anymore. Cluny did not massively outnumber his foes, he was dealing with roughly comparable odds, the deck was stacked against him and despite that he very nearly won. The deck was certainly not stacked against him. Regardless of Trunn's advantages over the mountain, numbers weren't the only thing he had. His army is not just an upsized version of Cluny's because it has some semblance of discipline. While Trunn had more manpower than Cluny did, they were both dealing with vastly inferior targets. The weaker version of the Long Patrol is still a much better fighting force than a church full of untrained children and geriatrics. Why? Because Cluny can render anything the defenders try to do obsolete by placing archers in an elevated position, such as up a tree, to shoot over the walls and prevent the Redwallers from fighting back since they have no weapons. Then they can't defend the gates, and Cluny wins. In contrast, the mountain doesn't have that sort of fatal defensive flaw.

Redwall has precisely one advantage, and that's resistance to siege by way of growing their own food. But that would be irrelevant in a world with slightly competent villains, because you could take the Abbey in a day if you just exploited the fact that they aren't trained to fight and don't even have the weapons to defend themselves with.