who would win?

[Tungro]

Also in the book Trunn uses practically no guile to take Salamandastron, basically he just told his captains, "I want the Mountain by sunrise". Cluny used many good tactics and maneuvers that only failed because of blind chance (Wasp nest and oil, soup ect) and it was convenient to the plot.

[Ouroboros]

Also in the book Trunn uses practically no guile to take Salamandastron, basically he just told his captains, "I want the Mountain by sunrise". Cluny used many good tactics and maneuvers that only failed because of blind chance (Wasp nest and oil, soup ect) and it was convenient to the plot.

He doesn't try them again though, that's the problem, and it makes him stupid. He gives up on a plan the second something goes wrong.

[Tungro]

Yeah, but Cluny doing it once is smarter than Trunn not doing it at all. Not to mention the Redwallers made it very clear that they would be prepared for any tactics used twice

[The Witessss]

true that, true that.

[Steelinghades]

Redwall has precisely one advantage, and that's resistance to siege by way of growing their own food. But that would be irrelevant in a world with slightly competent villains, because you could take the Abbey in a day if you just exploited the fact that they aren't trained to fight and don't even have the weapons to defend themselves with.

You seem to think the Abbey being open--which isn't a downside, it means war engines throwing projectiles over the walls have more chance to miss something--and having wooden doors is against it. I would love for you to show me a castle historically that used metal gates and doors. Portcullises and gates were wooden and despite this castles were practically impenetrable until the advent of cannons.

The redwallers don't live in a church, they live in an Abbey, there's a difference. Moreover it has been shown that while the redwallers don't have a lot of swords or so, the have a lot of quarterstaffs and they can easily make more. The quarterstaff is in fact a better weapon then swords for two simple facts, reach and striking power. Helmets and armour are rare in redwallers meaning a quarterstaff strike is just as lethal as a blade. Not only that but they've been shown to have a large quantity of skilled slingers among them.

I find your description of how Cluny could have won the abbey incredibly amusing, no he can't position archers in the trees--for one I don't recall him having many trained archers, his army was mostly pressganged--and for two there's these things on castle walls called merlons that prevent you from doing exactly that.

And more over, yes the mountain does have a fatal flaw--and I'm not talking about the numerous balconies its been mentioned to have--and that fatal flaw? The fact it's a mountain is its biggest greatest flaw, I can't even begin to go into how bad such an enormous fortress is before the age of gunpowder.

Some more minor points, neither Cluny nor Trunn have professional armies, not even in the slightest. Trunn has a slighter better rabble then Cluny and that only because I don't recall anyone trying to assassinate him.

And yes, the deck was stacked against Cluny, let's go through a checklist shall we:
- Cluny had a rabble of an army, a lot of which was pressganged.
- Cluny lacked high numerical superiority which is vital in sieges.
- And most importantly, Cluny had the guardian spirit of redwallers actively working against him.

Trunk by comparison had a slighter better army, had the required numerical superiority and--though he had bad dreams--he didn't have spirit actively working against him. Everything was handed to Trunn on a silver platter for his siege, there was no way he could have lost.

[Tungro]

Aye! What he said!

[Nadaz, voice of the host]

I have to say that Salamondastron does have several gardens on it's slopes probably including some high enough for the defenders to tend to without exposing themselves to enemy fire, while although the gardens and orchards at Redwall are more extensive anyone tending to them puts themselves at risk of being hit by an archer in the trees around the wall or a random projectile being hurled over the wall.

[Tungro]

I have to say that Salamondastron does have several gardens on it's slopes

The problem is that it would not support a mountain of hares. And according to Brian, Sunfish was the very first lord to put gardens on the slope, and even when he did, they where torn up for defensive purposes.

[The Skarzs]

Obviously, they eat all that food and store it for occasions like that.
I suppose one place they could have grown food was at the very top of the mountain.

[Nadaz, voice of the host]

You are right about Sunflash being the first Badgerlord to have gardens, however I have to disagree with you about supporting the hares. At the time of Lord Brocktree there were only forty or so hares do it is possible for the gardens to provide enough food.

[Steelinghades]

You are right about Sunflash being the first Badgerlord to have gardens, however I have to disagree with you about supporting the hares. At the time of Lord Brocktree there were only forty or so hares do it is possible for the gardens to provide enough food.

Then at the time of Cregga and Russano there were a thousand hares. Though this does bring up the question of where Salamandastron gets its food from normally.

I have to say that Salamondastron does have several gardens on it's slopes probably including some high enough for the defenders to tend to without exposing themselves to enemy fire, while although the gardens and orchards at Redwall are more extensive anyone tending to them puts themselves at risk of being hit by an archer in the trees around the wall or a random projectile being hurled over the wall.

For an enemy archer to fire into the Abbey, they'd have to be in either a truly monolithic tree or close enough to the wall that a dozen slingers or archers from the Abbey can deal with them.

[Tungro]

At the time of Lord Brocktree there were only forty or so hares do it is possible for the gardens to provide enough food.

My point is, that in the time of Brocktree there were no gardens, and it was stated that before Sunfish no lord ever considered having them, and as @Steelinghades mentioned, small gardens hanging on mountain slopes would not support a number of hares big or small during a long siege. Not only would they not produce enough, the hares could not access them without largely exposing themselves to the enemy.

[Sebias of Redwall]

That's a very interesting point.

[clunylooney]

A whole year since anyone wrote on this. That is impressive.

And if anyone still wants to respond to this,

Ruggan Bor vs Ublaz Mad Eyes.

[clunylooney]

In Taggerung, the main villain was not Ruggan Bor. It was Sawney Rath
With a sorta of ending point placed on Gruven, but he was too lame to draw attention to.
Actually, Sawney Rath was just as much the main villain as any other was.

There is not one way that Sawney was the main villain. NOT ONE WAY. I can handle people saying the others are the villains but if there is one major antagonist in that book who is not the main villain it is Sawney Rath. He was a major villain, but he was no way the main villain.