Aging in Redwall (A RP and FF-relevant question)

[James Gryphon]

There's been something of a discussion over Redwall series aging in the RP forum, and I figured that since this is a relevant topic to the series, and to most of the forum, I might as well post a topic for it here.

The discussion so far:

Unfortunately, I have reason to suspect that Redwall creatures don't seem to age at the same rates that their real-life equivalents do, but we'll never know for sure because the Redwall timeline tends to be so vague about when exactly things take place. I suspect it's about right for ferrets (looking at Swartt Sixclaw's life), and thus probably other creatures of similar lifespans as well, but it seems likely that mice live too long -- up to twice as long as they actually do in the wild, or even in domestic care. It sort of works if we use the house mouse instead of the wood/field mouse, and then assume the maximum possible life span, but those assumptions are obviously flawed, so.  

Thus, in the absence of details about aging, I wouldn't use any specific numbers for a RP age; just come up with a vague "stage of life" description and that's likely to be good enough.

Three months = one season; four seasons = one year.
The four seasons are: spring, summer, fall, winter.
Hope this helps.
Saber Truth

That's fairly intuitive, and should be known to most people (though in other countries, the seasons may be slightly different; for instance, the traditional Indian calendar denotes six seasons, of two months each) -- the tricky thing is knowing how these seasons relate to the age of Redwall characters.

It's no good to say that someone is "five years old" without also knowing that a five-year-old human is still very young and immature (physically, and likely mentally).

For the seasons to be any good to us, we have to know how much time passes in the life of an average Redwaller. If Martin, Matthias, etc. all lived to be, say, twelve seasons old, then we can start making assumptions. Unfortunately, we don't know this information, that I know of, because the Redwall series never directly tells us; instead we have to make educated guesses, based on sources of information like the Long Patrol chronology site. After that, we have to make several educated assumptions:

First of all, I think we have to assume their lifespans develop like humans, rather than like real mice (which are "mature" within a month or two). This is because most young dibbuns, or babes, are not visibly older at the end of a book than at the beginning, even though weeks or even months may go by in the story. Thus, it seems reasonable to assume that most Redwall beasts probably age at a slower rate, say, several times slower than they would in real life.

Now, these numbers will almost certainly be inaccurate (since I don't know how long Martin or other mice lived), but if we assume it's, say, four times what it would be in real life to mature, and that mice can live up to be sixteen seasons (which is about twice as long a lifespan as they have in real life), then at one to two seasons, a mouse might be a dibbun, at four, they might be the equivalent of teenagers, at six seasons, young adults, or so, and so on.

This alone doesn't cut it, though, because another problem is that some species presumably mature at different rates, so it isn't good enough to look at just one species and say, "'kay, that's it, this is the Official Redwall Maturity Formula"; instead we have to consider every single one, separately, and come up with an separate aging rate and lifespan for each and every one of them. Thus, a badger may (and probably will) take more time to mature than a mouse, but will live much longer; a ferret will be full-grown after a vole would, and so on.

The Redwall age scale, and our lack of understanding of it, is a formidable obstacle in using numbers to express just about anything time-wise, in role-play. I think it can be resolved, but it's going to take some time, study, and effort to get a better view of the full picture.

The best books to look at for information are probably ones where either a large period of time is covered in the story (like in Outcast of Redwall), or that are directly succeeded by other books in the series, and that keep the same cast, like Redwall to Mattimeo, or Mossflower to Legend of Luke. I've wanted to reread Mattimeo for some time, so this might provide extra motivation to do so.

[Gonff]

I don't think everything in the Redwall books was meant to be compared to real life. It is good to have a rough idea of how seasons represent what we would call a year. But comparing Redwall mice to real mice and people will not be accurate because they are not real. I think it is better in the RP to say your character's general age so that it is less confusing. Maybe we could astablish something that has a list of general ages (a dibbun, a "teen", a middle age, etc.) and say that this age equals the age of this character in this book.
For example: A dibbun= the age of Rollo in Matimeo. (If that is the right book)

Once again your post gives me a lot to think about.

[Osu]

Always with the fabulous posts, James.

I'm going to side with Nature on this one for the most part. I think there is a point when we get to overthinking the series a bit too much. I always mentally consider a season in a Redwall animal's life to equal a year in a human's life, but beyond that I try not to consider it too carefully. I'd go crazy otherwise. XD

[Scragg the Weasel]

I think I read that once when BJ was asked whether animals walk on all fours or two legs, he answered that it is up to reader and their imagination. therefore if you worry about whether redwallers live longer or shorter than their real life counter parts, last time I checked mice dont live in an abbey in my backyard. The stories are, in the words of BJ "good yarns". I think that we shouldnt worry too much about factors like age because we may lose focus of what these stories are saying and what they mean to us.

[Redwall Musician]

I'm going to side with Nature on this one for the most part. I think there is a point when we get to overthinking the series a bit too much. I always mentally consider a season in a Redwall animal's life to equal a year in a human's life, but beyond that I try not to consider it too carefully. I'd go crazy otherwise. XD

Things most of the time don't make sense.

[Osu]

LOL true enough. Part of the reason they're so fun to debate, though!

For the sake of keeping the thread moving along - 'cause this has suddenly become very interesting to me for some reason - I think it's worth mentioning the concept of age and aging quite possibly shifted in meaning as the series progressed. For example, we know Matthias was married at... 13 was it? Twelve? But later books suggest characters are older as major life events occur. If that made sense. So whether a season is a year or four seasons are a year, it's all canon!

[Romsca]

I'm confused by this too! Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[Tam and Martin]

They mentioned the ages of Dubble and Tagg (Deyna).

[Jukka the Sling]

Yes, Dubble was about 12 seasons old, and Deyna was about 15 seasons, and both were young.

I got the idea that at first in the Redwall series a season didn't equal a year in human terms. For example, Mara had been found as a babe five seasons before the events of Salamandastron, yet she seemed to be a somewhat rebellious adolescent during the book. Also, Mattimeo was supposed to be older than his dad was when he defeated Cluny, yet Mattimeo was only about 7-8 seasons old. But later on in the series it seemed that a season might equal a year in our terms, as evidenced by Dubble and Deyna.

[HeadInAnotherGalaxy]

May'apz ve could gae viz 1 zeazon = 1 year, 4 zeazonz = 8 yearz, 12 zeazonz = 3 yearz, an' zen give up an' zay zat time iz a loony bin an' let Nature be az ze vone tae vorry aboot time.

[Romsca]

Honestly, for RP's and FF's I just have time in years to make it easier for me. I don't think Brian tried to be exactly consistent about character aging. The only point was really to show that time passed, not necessarily how much time passed. It was like a qualitative graph that he assigned random numbers to instead of a quantitative graph. If you've taken physics, you'll know what I talking about

[General Ironbeak]

Yes, Dubble was about 12 seasons old, and Deyna was about 15 seasons, and both were young.

I got the idea that at first in the Redwall series a season didn't equal a year in human terms. For example, Mara had been found as a babe five seasons before the events of Salamandastron, yet she seemed to be a somewhat rebellious adolescent during the book.

I agree, that part really was badly done. But if a season is equivalent to 1/4 of a year, how would it look saying she had been found, like, 48 seasons ago? It makes it seem longer than it actually is.

Also, Mattimeo was supposed to be older than his dad was when he defeated Cluny, yet Mattimeo was only about 7-8 seasons old.

We don't know how old Matthias was in Redwall; the TV series portrays him as 13, which some fans---like myself---may have taken as canon, but he could be much younger. I heard on the MTW audiobook, Martin sounds about that age, even though it's generally believed that he's much older.

Still, no matter how good a writer he is, Jacques didn't define time well. Which is really too bad.

[Jukka the Sling]

Yes, Dubble was about 12 seasons old, and Deyna was about 15 seasons, and both were young.

I got the idea that at first in the Redwall series a season didn't equal a year in human terms. For example, Mara had been found as a babe five seasons before the events of Salamandastron, yet she seemed to be a somewhat rebellious adolescent during the book.

I agree, that part really was badly done. But if a season is equivalent to 1/4 of a year, how would it look saying she had been found, like, 48 seasons ago? It makes it seem longer than it actually is.

Yeah, it is confusing. So for RP's/fanfics I just go with the idea that a season = a year.

[Lady Amber]

Yea, me too.

[Wylder Treejumper]

I would guess one season to them=1 year to us... Comes across that way anyways.