Is Salamandastron northwest of Redwall or southwest of Redwall?

[Blazemane]

Hello, everyone,

For as long I can remember having any sort of idea of where different locations in the Redwall series are, I have for some strange reason always imagined that Salamandastron was to the north of Redwall. So, whenever Redwallers make a journey to the mountain, I've always imagined them going north. And whenever the Long Patrol or a visiting badger lord comes to Redwall Abbey, I've always imagined them coming south.

This past semester, I was looking through the Outcast of Redwall for a school-related project, and I got distracted into re-reading much more of it than I needed to. I ended up skimming through the chapter where Skarlath visits the Abbey briefly to warn them of Swartt Sixclaw and his band coming southward down the path on their way to seek revenge on Sunflash the Mace, who was at Salamandastron at the time.

So it hit me... if Skarlath is afraid that Swartt will see the Abbey on his way South to Salamandastron, then Salamandastron must be south(west) of Redwall.

I got ready to call shenanigans. Skarlath must have had his directions mixed up. But there it is on the map in the front of the book, too. Salamandastron is clearly south of Redwall.

I realized it was the same story in Taggerung, too. At the end, Russano the Wise comes with the Long Patrol to save Redwall in the nick of time from Ruggan Bor. Where does Boorab the Fool spot them on the path? Coming up from the south.

Oh.

So I went on a quest to figure this out, and I started to see my idea of Redwall's Atlas falling apart in front of me.

Rakkety Tam: The Long Patrol sets out from Salamandastron with Wild Doogy Plumm and Rakkety Tam to track Gulo's horde. They soon find the vermin's tracks going a bit east and sharp north, and they realize that the vermin might end up finding Redwall in that direction. Salamandastron, then, must be south of Redwall. And, while the map is drawn at a slight diagonal, it... basically looks like it agrees.

Lord Brocktree: For what evidence the map is worth without Kotir for reference, Salamandastron is shown far south of the nearest reaches of Mossflower woods. Of course, Sunflash the Mace is Brocktree's great-grandson, so it is unlikely that Mossflower could have grown quickly enough between their lifetimes to reach east-west level with Salamandastron by the time of Outcast of Redwall, and yet, that is exactly what Outcast's map shows. So... I don't know what to conclude from Lord Brocktree's map.

High Rhulain: No map of Mossflower, but when Tiria ventures out from Redwall and meets Blanedale Frunk, he takes her to Salamandastron first. And which direction do they sail? South.

Eulalia: After Gorath the Flame defeats Vizka, he and a number of friends take the Bludgullet out to the sea, and when Asheye's hares spot him coming, they spot him coming from the north. And even though Eulalia's map is also drawn on a diagonal rather than a straight north-east-south-west is up-right-down-left compass, it may very well show Salamandastron farther south in relation to Redwall than any other map drawn for the series.

The Rogue Crew: At the end, Lady Violet Wildstripe goes out on a patrol with some of the younger hares, and by good fortune (because they were hoping their friends would return soon), they meet the otters and the hares coming back with Razzid's ship. And that ship is coming from the north after tracking down the last of Razzid's crew. So Redwall is north of Salamandastron, in all likelihood. And that means Salamandastron is south of Redwall.

Finally, though I didn't scour through the pages of the story, I should also point out The Long Patrol, which has a map that shows Salamandastron southwest of Redwall, as well.

However... there does seem to have been some foundation or other for my having thought that Salamandastron was in the Northwest all this time:

Mossflower: In the story, Martin, Dinny and Gonff leave Mossflower just south of Kotir and head west for the shores.  It is certainly conceivable that on their journey they went off on a bit of a tangent and went south as well as east, but the story doesn't indicate--as far as I've seen in investigating thus far--how intense that southerly direction is, or even that they necessarily went south any bit at all. At any rate, when they (and Log-a-Log) eventually come close to the dunes, Martin points out that Salamdastron can be seen to the northwest. And then it takes them almost two days to reach it. Kotir, of course, isn't Redwall, but Redwall was built partly upon the ruins of Kotir, so logically they should lie incredibly close to one another. And the story would seem to indicate that Salamandastron had been northwest of Kotir.
Furthermore, Salamandastron is drawn northwest of Kotir on the map included with this book.

The Sable Quean: Buck tells Diggs that they are going to travel southeast (from Salamandastron) to visit Buck's uncle's farm. Once they start making their journey, Buck tells Diggs that they are actually going to visit Redwall first, and after a series of adventures, they do exactly that. Brian Jacques never indicates a change of direction for them (that they go north to Redwall and then south to the farm), which isn't conclusive evidence, but if the book is allowed to stand on its own, then the indication is much more strongly that Salamandastron lies to the north rather than to the south. And when Diggs and Buck finally arrive (with others in tow), Skipper lets them in through the North wicker gate, which would suggest that they came from the north. Finally, while the map for The Sable Quean is really ambiguous about where Salamandastron stands in relation to the Abbey, my inclination (my admittedly biased inclination) is that it shows Salamandastron to the north.

Mariel of Redwall involves Salamandastron as a location, but in the story, so many characters go up north and then back down south that there's really no clear indication of whether the mountain is north of the Abbey or south of it. Unfortunately for my theory, the general impression I get is that if Brian Jacques wanted to put Salamandastron in any place in this book, he would probably have it in the South. But, like I said, there's no clear indication.
With that said, the map at the front of Mariel of Redwall clearly shows Salamandastron north of Redwall.

The book Salamandastron itself presents something really confusing. The map is drawn almost exactly the same as Mossflower's map was drawn (and similar to Mariel of Redwall's)--only, with Redwall replacing Kotir. And, fittingly, Salamandastron is north of Redwall. I think in this case, Gary Chalk wanted to be consistent in his depictions of the landscape.

With that said, Samkim and Arulah take a long journey south, wind up in a southern lake, and then take the "Great South Stream" out to the Western Sea. Once they get there, they can already see Salamandastron. This wouldn't prove very conclusive since Martin and co. could see the mountain in Mossflower and still walked a long ways to get to it. But in this particular book, Samkim and Arulah immediately run into a hare (Sapwood) who had been left to drift from Salamandastron about a little over a day earlier. When they reach the sea, it's evening. The company manages to sail north up the sea (with a crew of Guosssom) and reach Salamandastron by dawn the next day. So it... sortof seems like the story would logically put the mountain south of Redwall.

So, am I missing something important--as I may well be doing? Because it seem like Salamandastron is northwest of Redwall in some books and southwest of Redwall in others.

I'm working on a piece of fan fiction right now. And if Salamandastron isn't always in the same place relative to Redwall in the series, then I think I would have reason to say, "well, I pick north," which would not only satisfy my own imagination's awareness of the Redwall series' geography (which would be good for sentimental reasons, I think), but also be of considerable help in the course of the story that I'm writing. I really want to be able to have the characters in the book take refuge in Mossflower on their way up to Salamandastron. It would be an interesting challenge to think out tactically how they could survive if they didn't have that luxury, but... I'd prefer that they did.

However, I want to stay true to the series; if Salamandastron is definitively southwest of Redwall, I want to write it there.

So, I suppose I'll ask it again: have I missed something important?

[Osu]

Your question was addressed in this topic quite recently. I would say Jacques switched the locations for places and things fairly often enough that there really isn't a steadfast canon location (apart from west of the abbey). You haven't missed anything.

[Blazemane]

Your question was addressed in this topic quite recently.

Ah, dang; I did a search with "Salamandastron" and "north" to get a general feel for whether or not I would be cluttering up the forums. Guess I should have looked a little harder. That thread is... right there.

I would say Jacques switched the locations for places and things fairly often enough that there really isn't a steadfast canon location (apart from west of the abbey). You haven't missed anything.

Well, thank you. As I said, I would prefer to be able to write it being in the North.

At any rate, with you being a Global Moderator, do you have authority to delete threads? I've already copied down my notes to an Open Office document in case I need them later, so with this thread being as redundant as it is, I'm totally fine with it disappearing.

[Osu]

And let a beautiful collection of Redwall-ish information such as this disappear? Never! The other thread has gone off topic really, I see no reason why this one can't stay up. c:

[Buzz_Bumble]

The mountain region is to the north of the Abbey, but Salamandastron is an old volcano to the south-west, on the coast.

Any changes in the location are due to temprorary continental drift. 

[Vilu Daskar]

In the song at the beginning of The Long Patrol says north up to Redwall.

[CrazyPug37]

On all of the maps for the stories that include Redwall and Salamandastron, Salamandaston is always shown north of Redwall, and closer to the ocean.

[Ungatt Trunn]

On all of the maps for the stories that include Redwall and Salamandastron, Salamandaston is always shown north of Redwall, and closer to the ocean.

But then how is it that on my map, Redwall is East of Salamandastron

[Blazemane]

On all of the maps for the stories that include Redwall and Salamandastron, Salamandaston is always shown north of Redwall, and closer to the ocean.

But then how is it that on my map, Redwall is East of Salamandastron

The ocean is in the west, Ungatt Trunn, so I'm pretty you're actually agreeing with CrazyPug. If Redwall is east of Salamandastron as you say, then naturally, Salamandastron is closer to the ocean as CrazyPug says.

With that said, CrazyPug, I do think there are a number of maps (not all of them, but many) that show Salamandastron to the south rather than the north. Like The Long Patrol and Eulalia. Or am I remembering something wrong?

[Ungatt Trunn]

With that said, CrazyPug, I do think there are a number of maps (not all of them, but many) that show Salamandastron to the south rather than the north. Like The Long Patrol and Eulalia.

Wouldn't be considered a mistake if it was different every time?

[CrazyPug37]

@Ungatt Trunn: Not usually, as the position of the buildings may differ depending on the view.  If the story focuses more south, Redwall might seem a little bit farther than Salmandastron or such. 

@Blazemane: My most recent book, Salamandastron, showed Redwall farther south than Salamandastron, but other books, as you said, may differ.  It really wouldn't matter whether you put Redwall more north than Salamandastron or vice-versa in your fanfic.

[Kitsune]

The map says it's south of Redwall. The poster map.

[Buzz_Bumble]

I had a bit of extra time this morning, so I went through the maps in my Redwall books. In general it seems to be that Salamandastron is more or less directly West of Redwall Abbey, and that the Abbey faces West with the path / ditch on the West side. (For some strange reason I always thought the Abbey and path / ditch were the other way around.)

Here's the complete list from my books:

Salamandastron is ...
North-west slightly in Mariel of Redwall
South-west slightly in Outcast of Redwall
North-west slightly in Mossflower
North-west slightly in Salmanadstron
South-west in The Long Patrol
South-west in The Pearls of Lutra (Salmandastron not actually marked, but there is a volcano)
West in Rakkety Tam
West in The Sable Queen
South-west slightly in The Rogue Crew
West in Redwall Map & Riddler

Not shown in Redwall, Lord Brocktree, Marlfox, The Legend of Luke, The Taggerung, Loamhedge, Doomwyte.


Redwall Abbey faces ...
West in Mariel of Redwall
West in Outcast of Redwall
West in Redwall
South-west slightly in Marlfox
North-west slightly in Mossflower
South-west in The Legend of Luke
West in Salmanadstron
West in The Long Patrol
West in The Pearls of Lutra
West in The Taggerung
West in Loamhedge
West in Rakkety Tam
West in Doomwyte
West in The Sable Queen
West in The Rogue Crew
South-East in Redwall Map & Riddler

No Redwall Abbey in Lord Brocktree.


The path / ditch is on the Abbey's ...
West in Mariel of Redwall
West in Outcast of Redwall
West in Redwall
West in Marlfox
South-west in The Legend of Luke
West slightly in The Legend of Luke
West in Salmanadstron
West in The Long Patrol
West in The Pearls of Lutra
West in The Taggerung
West in Loamhedge
West in Rakkety Tam
West in Doomwyte
West in The Sable Queen
West in The Rogue Crew
West in Redwall Map & Riddler

No Redwall Abbey in Lord Brocktree.


Triss and Eulalia! have no direction indicators on the maps, so it's not really possible to tell, but Salamandastron is roughly West in both cases (perhaps slightly North-west in Triss and slightly South-west[/i] in Eulalia!).

Neither Redwall Abbey nor Salamandastron are shown at all on the maps in The Bellmaker, Martin the Warrior, Mattimeo, and High Rhulain.