Rose's death

[laterose_librarian]

Hi, gang,

I read most of the books when I was younger, but now am going through them again and catching the ones I missed (the newer ones). I just finished Outcast of Redwall and I also just watched the first season of Redwall...a cartoon variation of the first book.

Just thinking... as Brian Jacques was writing Martin the Warrior ... did he know that he was going to kill off Rose in the end ... or did the story just unravel for him and kinda write itself?  What do you think? 

[Blazemane]

I think, in all likelihood, he knew that Rose was going to die before the end. Firstly, he wrote Mossflower, which takes place later on in Martin's life, long before he wrote Martin the Warrior. And in Mossflower, Martin comes into the story completely alone.

Secondly, in Martin the Warrior, right near the beginning, Brian Jacques has Luke speak to Martin about how to properly take care of their sword, and Luke specifically says that if Martin should have a son one day, he would know instinctively if that son was a warrior, and that Martin should hand the sword down to him. But then Luke immediately goes on to say that if Martin doesn't have any children, then Martin ought to hide the sword in a place where only a warrior would have the courage to go seek it out. That last idea seems to me to be a direct reference to Redwall, where Matthias ends up having to try to find Martin's sword, and then realizing that it was hidden on the Weather vane at the top of the Abbey (and then, of course, finding out that it's not even there anymore).

I feel like Brian Jacques was deliberately showing where Martin got the initial idea to hide the sword. But that idea completely depended on Martin not having any children. So Jacques knew right from the beginning of Martin the Warrior that Martin wasn't going to have any children. And, as I had mentioned, given the way he had already written Mossflower, he also knew right from the beginning that Martin couldn't end up with anyone by the end of the book.

The only thing that would have been left open for Jacques to decide about Rose was whether or not she would actually die, or whether she and Martin would simply not be together at the end. But... my gut tells me he had made that choice very early on, rather than figuring it out as he was writing the middle or later parts of the story. First of all, in the opening chapters where Martin first meets her, Brian Jacques deliberately writes that her name is Laterose--so he knew that would be her name from the beginning. This is significant because Redwall has its war with Cluny during the Summer of the Late Rose. And, of course, he had written Redwall long beforehand. So right from the first time we meet her, there's this very strong attempt to connect Rose with the legacy of Redwall. Why would that be unless Rose had meant something important to Martin?

Also, Aubretia of Noonvale tells the story of Martin the Warrior to the Redwallers during a time that was, itself, before the events of Redwall. And she is the one who brings the specific type of rose that blooms late (literally, the "Late Rose") to Redwall Abbey so that it is there in time for the events of Redwall. Now, admittedly, she gives this to the Redwallers at the end of the book. But at any rate, Aubretia explains that the Late Rose comes from Rose's grave. I don't know... I guess it just seems like, if Jacques named Rose "Laterose" right from the very beginning of the book, he probably had this connection to the flowers already in mind for her. He probably already knew that she was going to die, and that these roses would grow on her grave, because he knew he wanted the Late Rose in the Abbey in time for Redwall, and he wanted to give that flower's history.

Lastly, there is this portion from Q&A:

You have really great stories. Do you figure out the basic plot before you start writing, or do you just let the story go the way it wants to, and see where it ends up?

I always have a very good central idea and a fairly good idea of what the ending will be, but the rest flows out as if someone takes over my fingers and mind, I never quite know what adventures will develop.

Rose's death is arguably the very central idea of the ending of the book. I figure he was writing his way towards it the whole time.

There's still certainly a possibility that he wasn't planning on her dying from the very beginning, because none of what I've said is conclusive. But if if I had to take a guess, I would definitely go with the idea that her death was planned long beforehand--probably even before he started writing the book.

[Tam and Martin]

I agree with Blaze. He probably had that in mind and worked towards it.

[Jetthebinturong]

I think, in all likelihood, he knew that Rose was going to die before the end. Firstly, he wrote Mossflower, which takes place later on in Martin's life, long before he wrote Martin the Warrior. And in Mossflower, Martin comes into the story completely alone.

Secondly, in Martin the Warrior, right near the beginning, Brian Jacques has Luke speak to Martin about how to properly take care of their sword, and Luke specifically says that if Martin should have a son one day, he would know instinctively if that son was a warrior, and that Martin should hand the sword down to him. But then Luke immediately goes on to say that if Martin doesn't have any children, then Martin ought to hide the sword in a place where only a warrior would have the courage to go seek it out. That last idea seems to me to be a direct reference to Redwall, where Matthias ends up having to try to find Martin's sword, and then realizing that it was hidden on the Weather vane at the top of the Abbey (and then, of course, finding out that it's not even there anymore).

I feel like Brian Jacques was deliberately showing where Martin got the initial idea to hide the sword. But that idea completely depended on Martin not having any children. So Jacques knew right from the beginning of Martin the Warrior that Martin wasn't going to have any children. And, as I had mentioned, given the way he had already written Mossflower, he also knew right from the beginning that Martin couldn't end up with anyone by the end of the book.

The only thing that would have been left open for Jacques to decide about Rose was whether or not she would actually die, or whether she and Martin would simply not be together at the end. But... my gut tells me he had made that choice very early on, rather than figuring it out as he was writing the middle or later parts of the story. First of all, in the opening chapters where Martin first meets her, Brian Jacques deliberately writes that her name is Laterose--so he knew that would be her name from the beginning. This is significant because Redwall has its war with Cluny during the Summer of the Late Rose. And, of course, he had written Redwall long beforehand. So right from the first time we meet her, there's this very strong attempt to connect Rose with the legacy of Redwall. Why would that be unless Rose had meant something important to Martin?

Also, Aubretia of Noonvale tells the story of Martin the Warrior to the Redwallers during a time that was, itself, before the events of Redwall. And she is the one who brings the specific type of rose that blooms late (literally, the "Late Rose") to Redwall Abbey so that it is there in time for the events of Redwall. Now, admittedly, she gives this to the Redwallers at the end of the book. But at any rate, Aubretia explains that the Late Rose comes from Rose's grave. I don't know... I guess it just seems like, if Jacques named Rose "Laterose" right from the very beginning of the book, he probably had this connection to the flowers already in mind for her. He probably already knew that she was going to die, and that these roses would grow on her grave, because he knew he wanted the Late Rose in the Abbey in time for Redwall, and he wanted to give that flower's history.

Lastly, there is this portion from Q&A:

You have really great stories. Do you figure out the basic plot before you start writing, or do you just let the story go the way it wants to, and see where it ends up?

I always have a very good central idea and a fairly good idea of what the ending will be, but the rest flows out as if someone takes over my fingers and mind, I never quite know what adventures will develop.

Rose's death is arguably the very central idea of the ending of the book. I figure he was writing his way towards it the whole time.

There's still certainly a possibility that he wasn't planning on her dying from the very beginning, because none of what I've said is conclusive. But if if I had to take a guess, I would definitely go with the idea that her death was planned long beforehand--probably even before he started writing the book.

Everything about that makes sense but I'm going to correct you on one thing, Martin's sword is buried with him, but his spirit gives it to Simeon to give to Dandin. After the events of Mariel of Redwall, Rufe Brush climbs to the top of the abbey and ties it to the weathervane, presumably because Martin said to, so you could argue that it was Martin who hid the sword on the weather vane because Rufe did it because he asked but technically, Rufe hid the sword on the weather vane. 

[MeadowR]

Well thought out, Blazemane!

I'd just repeat that as Mossflower was seemingly written before Martin the Warrior, because Rose wasn't included there he felt that to explain why you hear nothing of her in that book it might be easier to kill her off in Martin. So why create the character at all? Well at least it gives a reason for 'Late Rose' mention in Redwall...

[laterose_librarian]

Thanks for the thoughts, everybody, especially Blazemane! 

[Ungatt Trunn]

Blazemane
It is right that BJ knew something was going to happen to Rose in the end to make Martin go wandering...without Rose. In the whole book of Martin The Warrior, it is hinted that Martin and Rose have some feelings for each other. That's an undeniable fact. So, if Rose had lived, the only other way that BJ would have gotten Martin to leave was to just plainly go away from Rose. But that would be stupid, and even if BJ made Martin and Rose to break up, that would plainly be a little too mature for something for the Redwall book.

Another question to ask is why BJ wrote Martin The Warrior at all. He could have just written some other story about Martin, or just a completely different story about some other character. Why write a story like this? To answer this question, you'll have to get a little deeper. I think the reason that BJ wrote Martin The Warrior was because he wanted to draw a sort of respect towards Martin from his readers. Most of the good warriors in Redwall usually had some great tragedy in the past involving some loved one dying in a heroic way to help them defeat what ever evil was going on at the time. That sort of what makes a warrior a warrior, having a tragic blow on your life wich leaves you with complete defeat, but you strive on and continue to do great deeds to defeat evil and to help good. This was probably the reason that BJ wrote Martin The Warrior; in a way, shwoing some warriorly respect to Martin is the only way that you fully appreciate to Redwall series. Martin is sort of the key to the whole world of Redwall; for every single Redwall book (with the exeption of Lord Brocktree), if Martin The Warrior was changed within the least involving Rose, the rest of thye Redwall books never would have happened. I've seen allot that the book, Martin The Warrior, itself, gets acknowlege as the key to the Redwall series. But that reconision should belong to Martin, the greatest character in the Redwall series.