Dragons

[Osu]

It occurs to me we don't have a topic specifically for discussion of the dragon myth surrounding Salamandastron. And so...

From the standpoint of a legend it certainly makes sense Salamandastron would be referred to as "mountain of the fire lizard," considering its volcano status. Boar the Fighter, at least, used the idea for the sake of warning off enemies and so on, and though later books stop referring to it altogether I think it's safe to say there were other badger lords and ladies who made similar use of the notion. Certainly whomever was ruling the mountain when the carving of the dragon's head was created at least must have used the same tactic.

What interests me as far as the legend goes is that later badger lords fail to make use of it, or at least aren't referred to as doing so. Folks stop referring to Salamandastron as the mountain of the fire lizard, too, which interests me even more: I can see the dragon's head getting lost or destroyed, and as it seems to me that during the time of the later books it has become well known to everybody that Salamandastron is populated by hares and badgers, there is no longer any need (or possibly just a lack of opportunity, being an open secret and all) to play the here-there-be-dragons trick on the surrounding area. And after the technique falls out of use it is certainly plausible it was forgotten at some point, and there you go.

But why remove the 'fire lizard' aspect from the mountain's title? Even if there isn't any military tactic in its use it's still accurate (wasn't it mentioned somewhere that Salamandastron means 'mountain of the fire lizard?') and let's be honest, it sounds pretty hardcore; no harm in making the headquarters of the Long Patrol sound more fearsome than it already is, right? It also has an air of formality, being longer, and could still be used in official letters and such (the same way Redwall is sometimes called 'the Abbey of Redwall'). If there's everything to gain and nothing to lose in doing so, why cease to use the title? (Unless I'm not recalling something, of course.)

Now let's flip the coin and say that dragons are (or were) real in the universe of Redwall: I just want to preface this by saying I don't think the addition of dragons in Redwall would be canon as it's quite clear from where I stand they are only a myth stemming from a volcano, nothing more. But if they were true to the series...

...my first conjecture would be that there was, as far as Salamandastron is concerned, only one dragon present. It is the mountain of the (singular) fire lizard, after all; and if there were only one dragon which died out at some point, then certainly it would make sense that no other dragons would make an appearance in the series. Or perhaps it didn't die out: maybe it's still alive, sleeping like a dormant volcano, deep within the depth of the mountain... *cue eerie music* But of course I couldn't make an argument for canon from that as Salamandastron is said to be extinct multiple times and so my idea for such a dragon would assume it is extinct as well.

Going further back, where would the dragon come from? If magic of some form is involved -- Salamandastron does seem to be a rather magical place, at least as far as the badger rulers are concerned -- then I suppose it's possible the dragon popped out of thin air in some way, possibly born from the lava within the volcano while it was still active. If no magic were involved then there must have been other dragons, too, and that opens up the discussion to where did they come from and what happened to them?

And moving further ahead, why are badgers the fated rulers of the mountain? 'Mountain of the fire lizard' might imply that the mountain once belonged to a fire lizard, meaning it was passed on very specifically to a badger and badgerkind in general. Was there a specific reason for it, I wonder, or did the dragon happen to be friends with a badger who inherited the mountain in some form? Or maybe the mountain was conquered by a badger and the dragon destroyed by such? The latter idea brings to mind such creatures as Slothunog and the Deepcoiler, and if they exist as monsters of water it isn't that much of a stretch to say such a creature existed as a monster of fire. It seems to me more likely the dragon would have been either a nameless evil or just a neutral entity that for whatever reason required destruction: and like the other giant lizards, it seems equally likely it would not share the same language as the usual animal characters, and possibly might not possess the same level of sentience, either.

And then there are the aspects specific to the dragon: certainly it resembled a lizard, and either possessed fire breath or, at least, the ability to sit in a fire unharmed. I like to think it wouldn't have been able to fly (although the thought of the Long Patrol having an aerial corps made up of dragons is a really, really cool thought) as an affinity for both fire and flight strikes me as over the top; and as neither Slothunog nor Deepcoiler had the power of flight one might make the argument for the same as regards Salamandastron's dragon. Then again, the first two were water-based creatures and the dragon must surely have been land-based, even if the volcano were once surrounded by water. And how large would the dragon be? What's enormous to a mouse would not necessarily be enormous from a reader's perspective, and the dragon myths most of us are familiar with would indicate dragons were of Godzilla-like proportions -- much too big for the Redwall universe, I should think. But if they were the size of, say, an eagle -- as far as I can say, eagles have so far been the largest land-animal mentioned in the series -- that would still be quite small for a dragon, wouldn't it? And if the dragon were quite small, saying "mountain of the fire lizard" would not at all be very impressive. Also I would want the dragons to be big enough for big scary badger lords to ride in to war on but that's just me. XD

That's about the extent of my theories. Anybody else have thoughts on the matter? Discuss!

[Jetthebinturong]

If you're going to say that "if there are water monsters, why not fire monsters?" then logically we must also have air monsters and earth monsters (Rocs and Wyrms anyone?)

Your theory is interesting and kind of makes me want to write my own fanfiction however I already have a fanfic in the works explaining the origins of that name, quoted from my unsung heroes series prologue

"In ages past the burnt-out volcano had been home to the salamanders. When magma had run through its crevices and tunnels the fire-proof amphibians had built a sprawling city, made up of caves in the sides of the mountain, accessed by a series of bridges across pits of lava. Vermin raiders feared the unpredictable mountain and its equally unpredictable inhabitants and only spoke of it in hushed tones in the corners of dingy taverns, Salamandastron, mountain of the fire lizards!"

Of course, the story picks up after this has happened and Salamandastron is ruled over by a vermin conqueror and his horde and the salamanders that once ruled are kept as slaves. After liberating the mountain, the first badger lord, Bluestripe the Wild, comes up with the idea of scaring off enemies using the old legend, thus the carved head.

That's not to say I can't write two origin stories however......

[Osu]

Oh! Oh oh oh! Two origin stories would be fabulous, I would definitely read them both! (One can never have too many Salamandastron origin stories, as far as I'm concerned.) Your fire-proof salamanders strike me as a very plausible theory as well. The only thing that stands out to me is their apparent helplessness; in a way, it makes the whole 'mountain of the fire lizard' title ironic in the sense that it must surely have been meant to inspire dread in those who hear it. There's also the carved head being as large as it was, indicating to me that, if there were such a creature, it might at least have been as large. (Then again you haven't mentioned how large your fire-salamanders are so perhaps I should stop putting my foot in my mouth! ^_^ )

I also really like your description of a sprawling city within the mountain consisting of bridges across pits of lava. That is just insanely cool.

Getting back on topic, you brought up a good point in that if there are water monsters and fire monsters it follows there would be air and earth monsters -- although I would make the argument that fire-beasts would double as earth-beasts in that regard. What I wouldn't give for some kind of allusion to a flying monster somewhere in the series! Gah. I suppose we can only theorize. Either way, I'm adopting that idea from now on.

[Albrithr]

Redwall deserves dinosaurs as much as earth- and wouldn't a dragon just be some kind of bombardier dinosaur?  (like the bombardier beetle)

[The Skarzs]

An interesting idea, Albrithr.
Welcome to the forum!

[Stonestripe]

The answer is in the books. The dragon myth comes from the Kiln that the badgers heat to make weapons Stonepaw used it and his booming voice to scare pirates away from the are and the vermin made up the tale about the dragon. It's one of my favorite tactics in the books. Kinda like when cornflower pretended to be Martin to scare the Rooks.

[Lady Ashenwyte]

I think that the text referred to the fact that Boar used it to make enemies think the mountain was still inhabited by the dragons.

[Kitsune]

^ Yes. I am pretty sure that there was a fake dragon that he used to show out of a window high up on the mountain.

[Hickory]

Hm, jet, with your fanfic I'm thinking of one or two reptile species from Harry Potter that are fire resistant. One of them is a salamander (fergot the name) and the other is a fre snake called the Ashwinder.

It would be cool if there was a snake that was fire resistant and roam Mossflower, terroizing travellers, and it only went by the name of Ashwinder...

[SoranMBane]

It would be cool if there was a snake that was fire resistant and roam Mossflower, terroizing travellers, and it only went by the name of Ashwinder...

Or, more in line with other Redwall villains who have claimed to have "magic powers," it could simply be a snake with unique fire-coloured scales who's found some clever way to trick other creatures into believing that it has power over fire in order to command their fear and respect. Perhaps this snake could even lay siege to Salamandastron with an army of fanatical reptiles, in order to consolidate its position as the "lord of fire."

... You know, this actually sounds like it would be a pretty awesome plot. We never did get a Redwall book with a snake as the main villain.

[Hickory]

Like to do an RP about it with me, Soran?

[Dibbun Against Bedtime]

Like to do an RP about it with me, Soran?

This sounds better as a.... COLLABORATIVE FANFICTION!  Seriously though, maybe we could have the main character be a hedgehog or a mole... Just some thoughts.

[SoranMBane]

Hmm... I've never really done much with forum roleplays, but a collaborative fanfiction sounds interesting. I've kind of already started on a prologue for this concept anyway (just for fun, mostly); once I'm done with that, I suppose could just post it in the fanfiction board and let others take it in whatever direction they want.

[Hickory]

I'm making an RP.