Matthias vs Cluny Fair Fight

[Tim Churchmouse]

Who would win in a fair fight?

[James Gryphon]

Well, I would dispute the idea that the fight we see in the book was unfair. Using the environment to your advantage is a fundamental part of any conflict. Sure, Cluny wasn't expecting it, but that was the whole point. Somebody who never does the unexpected is somebody who is going to lose any fight where they don't start out with an overwhelming advantage.

That aside, though, for this scenario to work we need to assume that Friar Hugo didn't sneeze. As long as Cluny knows he's there, he'll use the friar as a hostage, and there won't be much of a fight to write about.

In that circumstance, I would say that it's Cluny's to lose. While the two combatants were a pretty even match out in the open, his greater size and strength would give him the advantage in close quarters. Both Cluny and Matthias saw this:

If only he could get the mouse at close quarters and stop him from using the sword, Cluny thought, then he could win with his superior strength.

They locked in combat again. Cluny barred the railing across the sword blade. Pushing with both claws he drove Matthias backwards. Now he could see victory in sight. If only he could pin the warrior mouse against the wall, he would be able to throttle him with the edge of the railing.
...
Remorselessly he used his greater strength to drive the young mouse backwards. They were only inches from the wall now. Matthias realized what Cluny was doing. He would be finished once he was pinned against the wall.

Whenever they were pressed up against each other, Matthias only gave ground. To win, he needed open space where he would have room for finesse and could get the most out of his superior weapon. For that reason, climbing the stairs was probably a mistake, if he planned on doing anything other than cutting the Bell down.

Unless there's something really special up in the belfry that I don't know about, Cluny should have been able to win after he climbed the stairs and got Matthias pressed up into a space where the mouse couldn't move around.

I think it's worth noting, though that the outcome of the duel was probably irrelevant at that point. Matthias' conversation with Constance shortly after indicates that the woodlander alliance had already routed the horde before Cluny's death. If he killed Matthias, he would have come down to an Abbey ground filled with his enemies. As great a fighter as Cluny was, I don't think he could have survived or escaped all of the remaining Abbeydwellers, the shrews, the sparrows, and the cat and owl right outside the gate.

For the Horde to even have a chance of defending their prize, they needed Cluny's undivided attention. For them to have that, he would have had to kill Matthias almost immediately after they started fighting. By the point in time we're talking about, it was already over for the bad guys.

[Jasper]

Cluny would be on top in my book. Of all the malicious horde leaders in the Redwall series Cluny has the greatest reputation of any, and he legitimately backed it up. Honestly there were many times when he completely deserved to win Redwall, being foiled entirely by incredibly bad luck.

I also always found the final duel somewhat disappointing, as it featured a hero who lies to the villain to win. This is so contrary to what values the woodlanders normally seem to hold, and it's not exactly honorable. I know he supposedly comes down after chopping the bell, making his promise fulfilled, but it's hard to deny that his promise was clearly to fight, not to drop a bell on his opponent. So yes, my vote it 100% for Cluny 

[Vilu Daskar]

I think Cluny would.

[Tam and Martin]

Cluny would definitely win having the experience of fighting. Mathias only won because of a bell. 

[Delthion]

Well, I would dispute the idea that the fight we see in the book was unfair. Using the environment to your advantage is a fundamental part of any conflict. Sure, Cluny wasn't expecting it, but that was the whole point. Somebody who never does the unexpected is somebody who is going to lose any fight where they don't start out with an overwhelming advantage.

That aside, though, for this scenario to work we need to assume that Friar Hugo didn't sneeze. As long as Cluny knows he's there, he'll use the friar as a hostage, and there won't be much of a fight to write about.

In that circumstance, I would say that it's Cluny's to lose. While the two combatants were a pretty even match out in the open, his greater size and strength would give him the advantage in close quarters. Both Cluny and Matthias saw this:

If only he could get the mouse at close quarters and stop him from using the sword, Cluny thought, then he could win with his superior strength.

They locked in combat again. Cluny barred the railing across the sword blade. Pushing with both claws he drove Matthias backwards. Now he could see victory in sight. If only he could pin the warrior mouse against the wall, he would be able to throttle him with the edge of the railing.
...
Remorselessly he used his greater strength to drive the young mouse backwards. They were only inches from the wall now. Matthias realized what Cluny was doing. He would be finished once he was pinned against the wall.

Whenever they were pressed up against each other, Matthias only gave ground. To win, he needed open space where he would have room for finesse and could get the most out of his superior weapon. For that reason, climbing the stairs was probably a mistake, if he planned on doing anything other than cutting the Bell down.

Unless there's something really special up in the belfry that I don't know about, Cluny should have been able to win after he climbed the stairs and got Matthias pressed up into a space where the mouse couldn't move around.

I think it's worth noting, though that the outcome of the duel was probably irrelevant at that point. Matthias' conversation with Constance shortly after indicates that the woodlander alliance had already routed the horde before Cluny's death. If he killed Matthias, he would have come down to an Abbey ground filled with his enemies. As great a fighter as Cluny was, I don't think he could have survived or escaped all of the remaining Abbeydwellers, the shrews, the sparrows, and the cat and owl right outside the gate.

For the Horde to even have a chance of defending their prize, they needed Cluny's undivided attention. For them to have that, he would have had to kill Matthias almost immediately after they started fighting. By the point in time we're talking about, it was already over for the bad guys.

I agree with you.

[SilentSam]

Lol I would WANT Matthias to win, but Cluny has the poison barb, etc. So... yea. Also Matthias won because of the bell... but I like him more. TEAM Matthias

[Jetthebinturong]

Lol I would WANT Matthias to win, but Cluny has the poison barb, etc. So... yea. Also Matthias won because of the bell... but I like him more. TEAM Matthias

That's cool but could you change your signature please? It stretches the screen

[The Skarzs]

Welcome to the forums, Sam! If you post in the Introduction Topic in the Front Lawns, you can be greeted more properly by the other members.

But yes, Cluny would come on top eventually because of his endurance, size and strength, and not to mention skill.

[Dannflower Reguba]

       I'm actually going to have to go against the flow with this one and say Matthias. Sure, Cluny had the experience, size, etc... But he didn't have Martin's spirit. A spirit who's sole purpose is to protect the abbey, he's been known to intervene in situations like this before (like when Matthias slew Asmodeus), and I'm sure he'd do it again. Also, Cluny's size could be counted as a disadvantage because Matthias would be able to move and react quicker, as well as having less to endure through which would give him the long-term advantage in the weariness area. Cluny also lacked any REAL weapon, excepting his poison barb, which makes him vulnerable in armaments. It would certainly be very close, but all things considered, I highly doubt Martin would let his Abbey be taken by a now-crazed rat.

[Jetthebinturong]

This is disregarding the abbey just "If Matthias and Cluny had a fair fight, who would win?", no spirit of Martin, no poison barb, just two beasts battling it out

[The Skarzs]

       I'm actually going to have to go against the flow with this one and say Matthias. Sure, Cluny had the experience, size, etc... But he didn't have Martin's spirit. A spirit who's sole purpose is to protect the abbey, he's been known to intervene in situations like this before (like when Matthias slew Asmodeus), and I'm sure he'd do it again. Also, Cluny's size could be counted as a disadvantage because Matthias would be able to move and react quicker, as well as having less to endure through which would give him the long-term advantage in the weariness area. Cluny also lacked any REAL weapon, excepting his poison barb, which makes him vulnerable in armaments. It would certainly be very close, but all things considered, I highly doubt Martin would let his Abbey be taken by a now-crazed rat.

Very fair points to consider.

[Dannflower Reguba]

       Well if you're cutting it that far down than you'd have to strip them of everything they have, including size and strength. Making it strictly a battle of the wits which Matthias would almost un-doubt ably win given that Cluny was on the edge of being raving mad! I thought we were pitting the characters as their book presence was in an environment that gave no advantage (IE, a flat, grassland or some such).

       Tim, would you mind defining what your take on "fair" is so that we can bypass this issue? That way we can actually analyze something in a static state rather than in a relative state.

[James Gryphon]

Martin didn't always save protagonists. There's quite a few good creatures who got killed, whether at the Abbey or outside of it, and I don't think we can use the fact that he's helped the heroes or hurt the villains sometimes (usually in visions and dreams) to mean that any fight must be a guaranteed win due to his influence. He counsels the protagonists, and sometimes interferes with the enemy, but it is very unusual for him to do so in the middle of a fight: except for the incident mentioned with Asmodeus, and the ending of Mariel of Redwall, I can't think offhand of any other times when Martin does this. Anyway, this is supposed to be Cluny versus Matthias, not Cluny versus Matthias and also Martin's Spirit. Whatever else a fair fight may or may not be, it doesn't normally allow two against one.

While their actual fight does seem to suggest that Matthias might be a little quicker than Cluny, it isn't by a lot -- whereas Cluny is far stronger. As for endurance, I'd guess that they're pretty close to even, considering that they tired out at about the same time (counting injuries).

As far as their armament goes (which, by the way, the poison barb is a part of -- it doesn't make sense to deprive Cluny of what he apparently considered to be his main weapon), the railing could obviously sustain the blows from Martin's sword without significant damage, and he came close to throttling Matthias with it. It worked well enough for him that I can't say he's at a severe disadvantage there. His main mistake was at the beginning of their fight, when he tried to go for an easy kill with the poison barb. If he had battered down Matthias' defenses with the railing first, then after the shield was gone he could have overwhelmed the mouse by attacking with both the railing and the barb.

Finally, I've said this long before, and will hit on it again -- being crazy doesn't mean that you're stupid. Cluny was vastly more experienced in every degree of warfare than Matthias, and there's no evidence that Cluny's mental condition affected his fighting or strategic ability. (For example, he conquered the Abbey after coming down with kampanaphobia.)

[Feles]

Cluny would definitely win having the experience of fighting. Mathias only won because of a bell. 

saved by the bell