Why I didn't enjoy Outcast.

[Hickory]

Skarlath.
The hawk. He spies for Sunflash. But honestly, he doesn't kill, and the only event-changing moment he does is attacking the pirate (whom he doesn't even kill) and he doesn't stick around for many events of the book. Furthermore, he died from an arrow. Hawks have exceptional eyesight and he could've easily seen the bows and flown out of range. It was wrong.

Nightshade.
This vixen deserves to be warlady. She easily assesses situations (like at the mountain battle) and can in many cases solve it. She conducted most of the plan to get rid of the mountain dogfox (ugh, forgot the name) and I'm sure she came up with the poisoned chalice idea. Nightshade is more resourceful then Swartt.

Bryony
The mousemaid. When she first saw Veil and choose to take care of him, how old was she? This female character lacks what she needs most: depth. The only purpose she has is to follow Veil and basically make Togget injure himself for a lost cause. She chases blindly after Veil, consistently seeing the destruction he wreaks, while acting like it's all not his fault. Snap out of it, Bryony! You're old enough to realize, he's vermin! Veil tried to poison Bunfold!

Abbey Creatures.
We all love the Abbeybeasts, but BJ didn't expand enough on them. Abbess Meriam, despite playing an intermediate part in the plot, is just like Vale and other vague female mouse Abbesses. Barlom acts like other headstrong Redwallers, such as Burlop from Rakkety Tam.

[Captain Tammo]

  I gotta say, I loved Outcast for it's different perspective. At the time that I read it, I was always wondering what made vermin so bad, and if a vermin could actually be good. This book answered that for me, as well as did one thing in particular that can't really be found anywhere else in the series:

1.) we don't really know if one of the main characters (Veil) is good or bad for sure during much of the story.

2.) a vermin is the antagonist!? AWESOME!

3.) we get to peer into what goes on in a vermin's head.

While I can certainly respect your views on Outcast, I guess the story just really worked for me.

So if you didn't like this one as much as some of the others, what one is your favorite?

[Hickory]

Long Patrol is my favorite.

Don't get me wrong, Outcast had lots of enjoying perspectives to it. But I felt it was a little shallow. (Not criticizing BJ here)

[LT Sandpaw]

I didn't enjoy Outcast as much because it was very lacking in reality, so much so it got annoying, the hawk did nothing, the mouse was blind to clear evil, and the badger was waaaaaay overpowered. The only redeeming factors was the bats who were great and when Sunflash gets smashed on the head with a rock.

BYW Long Patrol Is my favorite as well

[James Gryphon]

Just as a note, on point #4, it isn't really fair to criticize the characters in Outcast by saying that they're 'just like' ones that came along in much later books. If a character in Outcast follows a stereotype or a cliche, it's a trend that it started, not followed.

As far as not seeing Skarlath fight, that's because it isn't an efficient use of resources. If he got hurt in a battle, he can't do his job, which is 1) serving as an "eye in the sky", and 2) courier/messenger. The trouble with Skarlath as a sidekick is that most of the important stuff he does, like getting the otters and squirrels together, takes place "off-screen". It's like the gallopers in other Redwall books -- what he does is absolutely essential, and yet so mundane that it would be a waste of space to record it in the book.

Nightshade, for her part, is quite possibly the most effective sidekick (for a villain or a hero) in the entire series, and had more to do with Swartt's success than any other single factor, but even so I think you're underestimating Swartt here. It was he, not Nightshade, who originally led the split away from Bowfleg and started his own vermin band. He was considered "a strong fighter, even when he was very young". It was Swartt that decided to usurp control of Bowfleg's horde, and based on his dialogue when he did so, I think it was actually he who came up with the poison cup idea. (For that matter, he knows a good thing when he sees it, and reuses this trick several times -- if it ain't broke don't fix it.) He puts down mutinies and efficiently maintains and grows his horde until it's large enough for an attack on Salamandastron. He outwits Zigu at their war council, and in the end, it's by him striking a blow with his paws that Sunflash ended up tied at the top of the mountain.

It isn't right to give Nightshade all the credit. They're like a married couple in how their strengths and weaknesses play off of each other. Nightshade wasn't ruthless or strong enough to take and hold a position of power against veteran killers, and wasn't ambitious enough to grow her own horde. She needed someone with both of those qualities to take care of her, which Swartt did perfectly, up until, of course, she stayed behind, killed Skarlath, and got crushed by Sunflash's mace.

I will agree that Bryony wasn't the best of Mr. Jacques' protagonists, though.

[Hickory]

Huh, now I feel prejudiced against Outcast.

All those points work out. But on the subject of Skarlath and the killing he does, they both promised at the beginning that they would both pick off Swartt's horde members.

[Lady Cregga]

You're right about Skarlath. I don't mind that he never actually did any killing, maybe he was a peace-loving beast (I can't remember) but he should have been able to see the bows.

On Nightshade, yeah, she could have been the warlord (warlady) but as said before, she and Swartt worked like a team. Alone, I doubt they would accomplish as much.

Bryony, yeah, could have stopped trying to excuse everything Veil did. She's old enough to see he's evil.

On the Abbey Creatures-I don't like sometimes when the Abbess or Abbot don't get mentioned that much, and are kind of the same as all the others. Abbeydweller's personalities don't differ all that much, actually.

I still liked the book though-it was interesting to see how Veil would turn out.

[MeadowR]

I'm rereading it at the moment and I rather like it. I do agree some of the characters aren't too well developed as in other books.

I was surprised the Redwallers gave the young mouse the baby to look after, especially being aware he could turn out nastily. Such a sudden big decision to put upon Bryony. Can't blame her too much for trying to stick by Veil after being linked to him like that at the young age.

[SoranMBane]

I have sort of mixed feelings about Outcast. It's been a while since I've actually read it myself, but I remember being vaguely disappointed by it as a kid. Not to the point that I didn't enjoy it (I genuinely did, despite my frustrations), but it just wasn't quite what I was hoping to get from the description and title.

You see, as a kid, one of my absolute favourite character archetypes was that of the evil character who ultimately winds up turning good and helping the heroes to save the world; you know, characters like Ken from the second season of Digimon or Prince Zuko from Avatar. That's the kind of arc I was hoping Veil would get when I started reading Outcast, and even his final redeeming moment in saving Bryony wasn't enough to scratch that itch.

Plus, in a lot of ways, Veil felt like the B-plot in his own book, with his part of the story largely taking a back seat to Sunflash and Skarlath. I do like Sunflash and Skarlath - they're cool characters - just... Not really what was advertised.

[The Mask]

Before reading further, I'm not dissing your views I'm presenting arguments that I think are valid
On skarlath
Have you ever tried using binoculars as your main source of vision? Let me tell you from experience, it's hard. That's possibly why skarlath didn't see those bows. That said, if he couldn't see them, he would be a pretty bad lookout

On Bryony
She has taken a maternal role. Nuffield said. Many older sisters become like mothers to sibling if the parents pass away. Similar thing I think! Mothers often think their children are near perfect. This is just a slightly exaggerated form of this.

[Lady Ashenwyte]

But I'm pretty sure birds' eyes are not binoculars.

[MeadowR]

(Now I've finished)
Even Veil's great moment of saving Bryony from the spear was pooh-poohed a tad. I thought it was a poignant moment, but then Bryony later says he might not have saved her if he'd've known the spear was really going to be thrown. Can't remember if it even said where he'd been buried? Anyway, I do like it when the 'bad' and 'good' beasts thing is played around with in a few of the books (not enough!).

I'd say the book's title might be a little misleading (in fact a potentially interesting new thread topic on the titles). It's quite a good few chapters in before we even get to the outcast part and even then it's not a huge part of the story, as someone else said. Sunflash is the main guy here, really.

[The Mask]

But I'm pretty sure birds' eyes are not binoculars.

That's true, but they're not far off either!

[Starla1431]

(Now I've finished)
Even Veil's great moment of saving Bryony from the spear was pooh-poohed a tad. I thought it was a poignant moment, but then Bryony later says he might not have saved her if he'd've known the spear was really going to be thrown. Can't remember if it even said where he'd been buried? Anyway, I do like it when the 'bad' and 'good' beasts thing is played around with in a few of the books (not enough!).

I'd say the book's title might be a little misleading (in fact a potentially interesting new thread topic on the titles). It's quite a good few chapters in before we even get to the outcast part and even then it's not a huge part of the story, as someone else said. Sunflash is the main guy here, really.

I agree. When I first read the book I expected it to be about Veil. Instead it was about Sunflash and Swartt. We only had only about six chapters with Veil in it and it was only at the end. The book should have been name Sunflash the Mace instead.

[The Skarzs]

Outcast wasn't my favorite book, and I agree with your points. Most authors have those works that really weren't the best, and I think that was Brian's.