The Paris Attacks

[Jukka the Sling]

  (I still disagree, though, as you're focusing on only the negative of the Qur'an, which is by no means the whole book. There's a lot that preaches love and peace, too.)

What are some of those verses you mentioned?  There are 109 verses in the Qur'an advocating violence, and they aren't softened by historical context; rather, they're meant to still be valid today.  Here.  I suggest reading the initial short article and as many verses as possible.  (And then head to the main page of the site.  It's fascinating.)

I think another example of religious wars from another religion are the Crusades.

Even if we assume that the Crusades were perpetrated by true Christians (which they were not), the main thing is the here and now.  Muslim terrorism is happening right now.  Christian terrorism is not.  Therefore, the Muslim terrorism is what we have to consider.

Guys it's Qur'an, come on.

Since the IRA want people of other religions to be prevented from interfering with Irish affairs, I'd say that they are very much fighting for their beliefs.

But the whole reason the IRA exists is to form a country independent of Britain.  You can't say that that's a religious objective.

The KKK is also a predominantly Christian organisation. You cannot pretend that Muslims have the only terrorists, that's just disingenuous.

You can't compare what the KKK does in disobedience and violation of the New Testament to what (your numbers) six percent of Mohammedans do in obedience to their holy book.

On that subject, why the quotation marks Jukka? Only six percent of Muslims are terrorists you know, the majority are content to live in peace.

Jet, there are 1.6 billion Muslims worldwide, and six percent of that is ninety-six million.  Apparently there are ninety-six million Muslims (probably more) around the world prepared to blow you up or who support those who would.  And half of them probably live in the UK.   Lol, just kidding, but incidentally, the most popular baby name in the UK is Mohammed...

One of their objectives is religious, the others aren't.

Okay, sure it's a large number, but Islam is the most common religion in the world. Mohammed is the most common forename in the world. And yes the UK probably holds many terrorists, but I'm sure they're pretty widespread in every country.

What do you mean by "most common religion in the world"?  The number of people worldwide who identify as Christians far exceeds those who identify as Muslim.

The point is, it's the most common baby name in the UK, and there are at least eighty-five Sharia (Islam's theological law) courts in the UK, and some of their rulings have been backed by UK law people.  And if you haven't already, check out this link and also check out the main page, which is fascinating.

It's a deeply misguided statement when people say that the Qur'an is mostly about love and peace.

[Rusvul]

109 verses out of 6,236 is only 1.7%.

Positive Qur'an quotes/verses

"There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned." (Holy Quran: 2/ 256)

"You cannot guide those you would like to but God guides those He wills. He has best knowledge of the guided." (Holy Quran/28: 56)

"God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just." (Surat al-Mumtahana,

"But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things." (8:61)

"And do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness."[5:8]

"Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness–their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow."  (Quran 5:69)

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." (18:29).

"Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors" (2:190)

The true servants of the Gracious One are those who walk upon the earth with humility and when they are addressed by the ignorant ones, their response is, Peace; (25:63)

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Conversely, a case could be made for the Bible inspiring violence.

Bible quotes regarding violence

2 Kings 2:23-24
He [Elisha] went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, "Go away, baldhead! Go away, baldhead!" When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

Exodus 32:27-29
Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' "The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."

Joshua 8:24-26
When the Israelite army finished chasing and killing all the men of Ai in the open fields, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai, including men and women, was wiped out that day—12,000 in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed.

1 Samuel 15:3,8
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' " ... He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword.

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   I'm certainly not saying that the Qur'an is a book full of rainbows and sparkles while the Bible is nothing more than a book advocating genocide. Both books have a lot of good in them, with a little bit of bad and a lot of self-contradiction between the two. While I mean no offense, from where I'm standing, it looks rather hypocritical to accuse one book of advocating violence while adhering religiously to the other.

   All throughout history, people have done bad things in the name of their religions. No matter what their faith, they've always been able to twist words intended to be positive into words sanctioning violence, torture, and genocide, while ignoring words from the same source telling them to live in peace.

[Gonff the Mousethief]

Those Bible verses are not saying go kill everybody, they are talking about battles and things that were more important to the actually whole of the story. Never judge one verse alone until you know the context of it. Know I know this history of Islam and such, and it is not one of peace by far. The ultimate goal is to build a caliphate of just Muslims, and from there kill any who aren't.

[Jetthebinturong]

That is the ultimate goal of the IS, yes, but most Muslims realise that it's stupid.

[Rusvul]

   Fair point on the Bible verses, perhaps I chose poorly. The point remains, though, that they are referring to specific instances in which genocide was sanctioned by God. However, if we're judging by history, Christianity has had just as many people doing bad things in the name of their religion- The Crusades, the Holocaust, the KKK, there are more as well. The beliefs of past Christians who used religion as an excuse for violence differ drastically from that of the vast majority of modern Christians, just as most modern Muslims interpret the Qur'an differently (and more peacefully) than past Muslims.
  Religions change over time, many religions have violent pasts, and the modern followers of such religions try to distance themselves from atrocities committed by their historical counterparts- And rightly so, because they have different beliefs.

  You refer to an ultimate goal... Might I ask, whose ultimate goal is this?

[James Gryphon]

A point I'd like to make about the Crusades is that they were part of a centuries-long war between medieval Christendom and Muslim Arabs. The reason why Jerusalem and all of the "Holy Land" was owned by Muslims in the first place is because they had conquered it, along with a frighteningly large percentage of the Mediterranean world, in a series of offensives over the past few hundred years, and were bent on conquering Europe. The Pope/other medieval rulers didn't just all get up on the wrong side of bed one morning and say "Hey guys, let's go kill some Muslims" for no explicable reason. It was more complicated than that.

[Lady Ashenwyte]

Those Bible verses are not saying go kill everybody, they are talking about battles and things that were more important to the actually whole of the story. Never judge one verse alone until you know the context of it. Know I know this history of Islam and such, and it is not one of peace by far. The ultimate goal is to build a caliphate of just Muslims, and from there kill any who aren't.

The ultimate goal of whom, as rus and I have asked? Most modern muslims care about caring for their loved ones, getting education, or working. Terrorists are the only ones who seek to establish a state like that, but the average Muslim is not a terrorist. Here's a chapter of the Qu'ran:

Surah (Chapter) 109 Al Kafiroon of the Holy Quran:
Say, "O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. For you is your religion and for me is my religion."

That chapter preaches tolerance, as far as I can tell.

[Blaggut]

If you are Christian or Muslim, you advocate violence. It is that simple. Both books say to stone gays, stone alduterers (To Death). The Bible advocates the slaughtering of whole cities, killing every woman, child, donkey, or insect. "Anything that breaths". The Bible says to send non-believers to hell. Both books say to make images is a terrible sin, see the ten commandments. "A man who makes an image shall be tortured mercilessly until he can breathe life unto that image" -Qur'an "Thou shalt not make or have any graven images, or any images, of any thing on the earth, in heaven above the earth, or in the seas below the earth" -Bible

Graven means engraved, carved, etc. Any Images means, well, /any image/. Paintings, sketches, billboards, even television. Thus, if you are part of either belief, you are sinning if you make or have any image. May I also remind you women are not allowed to speak in public, especielly not in churches. This is in both the Qur'an and Bible. It is unclear wether this means to speak as in make speeches and give opinions and preach and sing hymns, or simply make small talk. In either case it's blatant sexism.

A lot of people on here are religious. You'll aren't bad people. You simply subscribe to immoral belief systems. You have been purposely or accidentally indoctrinated into belief. I recommend you all watch Darkmatter2525's videos on YouTube. They are comedic animations pointing out many of the flaws and immoralities of religion.

[The Skarzs]

. . . You have the most flawed view here.

First off:

If you are Christian . . . , you advocate violence.

No, we don't.
I must point out that in the Old Testament God intended to show how evil sin is with these extreme measures, like:

to stone gays, stone alduterers (To Death).

However, it should not be up to us to decide the punishment for these things, which is why in the New Testament, when Mary Magdalen was going to be stoned for adultery, Jesus made it clear that man is no longer given that authority. ("Whoever among you is without sin, cast the first stone.") God shall decide when and how and when the punishment and death shall be.

The Bible advocates the slaughtering of whole cities, killing every woman, child, donkey, or insect. "Anything that breaths"

Once again, the extreme measures of the Old Testament where God was clear in that His will would not be opposed by man. But the Bible does not "advocate" this slaughter. If it was advocating it then it would say to go do that everywhere, where it does not. Do Christians go around destroying cities to the life-form? No.

The Bible says to send non-believers to hell.

Impossible. Only God alone has that power, and He alone will make the judgement.

Both books say to make images is a terrible sin, see the ten commandments. "A man who makes an image shall be tortured mercilessly until he can breathe life unto that image" -Qur'an "Thou shalt not make or have any graven images, or any images, of any thing on the earth, in heaven above the earth, or in the seas below the earth" -Bible

A supreme and constant vice the Jews/Israelites faced was the sin of idolatry. They fell into many many times. That is why it was so stressed that images should not be made, since they were such a great temptation to them.
But if a child draws a stick figure of his dad, is he going to adore it in place of God? Of course not! It is irrational to be punished for something like that. It is sinful only if it replaces God.

May I also remind you women are not allowed to speak in public, especielly not in churches. This is in both the Qur'an and Bible. It is unclear wether this means to speak as in make speeches and give opinions and preach and sing hymns, or simply make small talk. In either case it's blatant sexism.

In the New Testament, there was the woman who said aloud "Blessed is the womb that bore thee, etc." This was in a crowd. If it was not allowed to speak in public, then why was she allowed to speak? "Sexism" is a rather recent term. In ages before, women were sheltered or considered second to men, in pretty much every culture. It was the way things were back then, and can hardly be placed in modern times.
Lastly:

You simply subscribe to immoral belief systems.

Immoral? Immoral?! -Edited.-

[Jetthebinturong]

I think the divide between modern Christians and the Bible is very clear. I'm sorry Skarzs, but slaughter can never be moral. To pretend that the Bible is perfect in it's morality is ridiculous, but YOU DON'T HAVE TO FOLLOW THE ENTIRE BIBLE TO BE CHRISTIAN. The definition of Christian is "follower of Christ." Belief in Yahweh and Jesus is the ONLY thing required to be a Christian.

That comment is directed at Blaggut, as well as all you non-denominational protestants who claim that other religions just aren't Christianity. You're wrong, the dictionary says so, as does the Bible (Jesus says that anyone who believes in him will go to Heaven so you're clearly reading the wrong book if you think otherwise).

[The Skarzs]

I'm sorry Skarzs, but slaughter can never be moral. To pretend that the Bible is perfect in it's morality is ridiculous

I'll cede to that, but that doesn't make the whole religion immoral, I'm sure you'll agree.


I'll be leaving this topic now. I refrained from saying things before, but I could not stay silent that time, so from now on I'll just lurk the thread that has fallen away from its intention.
Stay frosty.

[LT Sandpaw]

Everyone just stop... Maybe it doesn't bother you, sitting safe in the US or UK. But maybe, just maybe the memory of these people, (some of whom are finding out who is right in this argument you're having), is what this thread is about.

So if you would stop attacking each other, I would be very appreciative.

[Jetthebinturong]

I'm sorry Skarzs, but slaughter can never be moral. To pretend that the Bible is perfect in it's morality is ridiculous

I'll cede to that, but that doesn't make the whole religion immoral, I'm sure you'll agree.

I do agree.

[Groddil]

EDIT: Whoops, I quoted the wrong quote.

Everyone just stop... Maybe it doesn't bother you, sitting safe in the US or UK. But maybe, just maybe the memory of these people, (some of whom are finding out who is right in this argument you're having), is what this thread is about.

So if you would stop attacking each other, I would be very appreciative.

Seconded.

[Matthias720]

Let me take a moment to remind everyone the first two rules of the forum:

1.  Respect everyone's opinion. Everyone has the right to have their opinion. If you don't agree with someone, then it's okay to say what your opinion is as long as you respect theirs.

2.  Everyone is entitled to their own belief in politics and religion, and that must be respected. But because of the volatile nature of these discussion topics, please refrain from posting topics about controversial subjects (ie: politics, religion, etc..). These subjects are not banned in general conversations, however, they will be heavily moderated to ensure that they do not get out of hand. The forum staff reserves the right to judge to determine whether a topic or discussion falls under this rule.

I don't want to see any more bashing of what other members believe, in this topic. What happened in Paris is a tragedy, on par with 9/11 in the USA, and by arguing with one another, you dishonor those who've passed. Yes, express your sorrow. Yes, express your shock and disbelief. But under no circumstance should you condemn another individual for the way they choose to live their life; especially if you have not experienced those choices yourself.

If this bickering continues from ANYONE, not only will this topic be closed, but I WILL ensure consequences are handed out. This was a terrible event, so you better start treating it like one.

Got that, staff members? If you see anything here, handle it.