Leadership in Redwall

[Maudie]

Lately I've been studying different books, looking for elements of what makes the leaders in those books such powerful figures. Since this is a Redwall forum, I thought why not talk about the elements of leadership in the Redwall series?

I have some discussion questions for this topic:

Who were some of the greatest leaders in the series?
What about them inspired others to follow them?
Common elements of Redwall leaders?
What points about leadership does Brian Jacques make throughout the series?
How could these leadership traits be implemented in the real world?

[Feles]

Who were some of the greatest leaders in the series?
Lord Brocktree, Ungatt Trunn, Sawney Rath, Martin the Warrior, Matthais...to name a few
What about them inspired others to follow them?
See Below \/
Common elements of Redwall leaders?
Good: Inspiring Image, Battle Prowess and (Mostly) Mary Sueish Qualities Evil: Fear, bullying and an air of command
What points about leadership does Brian Jacques make throughout the series?
¯\_(?)_/¯
How could these leadership traits be implemented in the real world?
¯\_(?)_/¯

[Ashleg]

^This, but... (To answer the last question)

For the good: an inspiring image is very likely to have someone placed as leader of a country.
That, and good attitude.
The evil qualities tend to be seen in self-implemented leaders who take over places, such as Swartt (or a real life example: Hitler).

[Maudie]

I've always thought Graypatch from Mariel of Redwall was a good leader, but it's been awhile since I read the book.

[LT Sandpaw]

You know I find that the good Redwall characters often display a leadership by example, or servant leadership, often leading the charge, getting their paws dirty and so forth. They're usually disciplined, but kind to their own and honorable in battle. It's often shown in the books that martyrdom is preferable to retreat to these leaders, and usually the growing leaders throughout the series are shown as hotheads, but brave and resourceful none the less. It reminds of Platoon leadership rather then true military command. This type of leadership can be foolish and even dangerous to an army, but it works for a book series like Redwall.

In contrast the vermin leaders are often depicted as leading troops from behind and by, as the books often say, fear. In short they're bullies and gang bosses, with very few showing true leadership, Cluny is one such exception. They have a much more straight forward and brutal strategy of leading, which makes sense considering their situation. They have to fear enemies from their own ranks hitting them from behind, and yet still respect the loyalty of everyone throw shows of force. Also, seeing the low morale that most vermin possess they need to maintain a overview of what is happening at all times to keep their army on course, and to stop a mass rout. While their leadership is less 'honorable' it makes a lot more sense.

The third form a of leadership often portrayed in the books is this sort of Father Knows Best, parental wisdom type of leadership. Where characters, usually older characters and or female badgers, give wisdom by word rather then action.

Lastly there is this leadership of friends, which seems to me like the second most common form used in the books. Where the natural leaders rise, through trial and error, effectively leading their best friends, where no one else would follow. Each one exchanging the role of leader when the task fits their particular set of skills. This type of leadership would never work on the large scale, but its still good for when they're trying to decided where or what to eat, or what to do next during the day or where to sleep that night. It's the kind of leadership, where one can take charge, without actually saying, "Hey I'm in charge."

[Grond]

Who were some of the greatest leaders in the series?
Lord Brocktree, Ungatt Trunn, Sawney Rath, Martin the Warrior, Matthais...to name a few
What about them inspired others to follow them?
See Below \/
Common elements of Redwall leaders?
Good: Inspiring Image, Battle Prowess and (Mostly) Mary Sueish Qualities Evil: Fear, bullying and an air of command
What points about leadership does Brian Jacques make throughout the series?
¯\_(?)_/¯
How could these leadership traits be implemented in the real world?
¯\_(?)_/¯

I am curious- why do you think Swaney Rath was one of the greatest leaders in the book ? First he had a really small horde/gang (it wasn't even an army really)  it numbered like 70 or so vermin I think, obviously someone like Trunn who had an army 7500 strong had to be a good leader to keep it together, he also got abandoned by his adoptive son Taggerung because he had become too cruel and bad tempered (bad traits for a leader), and finally he was killed by one of his own followers/clan members- Antigra (he is I think the only vermin leader who was killed/assassinated by one of his own followers deliberately).

[James Gryphon]

obviously someone like Trunn who had an army 7500 strong had to be a good leader to keep it together

I'm not sure I'd go that far. He could have inherited it or leeched it off from his father. This might sound unfairly blunt, but I'm not impressed by his ability to rule over an army of blue-furred lugs through his officers for a little while before they all got frittered away fighting vastly smaller forces. Obviously the "Grand Fragorl" wasn't impressed with his leadership, nor were the thousands that defected along with her. If Ungatt's presence was anything special, I'd think that, even if his followers weren't loyal, they should have at least been too afraid to leave.

[he also got abandoned by his adoptive son Taggerung because he had become too cruel and bad tempered (bad traits for a leader)

I don't think Sawney was cruel or bad-tempered for a vermin leader. Skinning the fox to death was harsh (understatement of the month ), but honestly is it any worse than what a lot of the other villains have done? From what I recall, the book actually implies that Sawney was unusually lenient for a vermin warlord up to that point, letting Tagg get by with not doing the verminy things that were expected from someone in his position. If I had to guess I'd say the only major villain leader I can think of in the entire series who Tagg could have conceivably stuck with was Verdauga Greeneyes. Tagg is not a good benchmark to use to gauge the degree of Sawney's personality flaws. Judging by how opposed to killing and violence that Tagg showed himself to be, I'd say Sawney was doing a great job to keep him with the clan for as long as he did.

and finally he was killed by one of his own followers/clan members- Antigra (he is I think the only vermin leader who was killed/assassinated by one of his own followers deliberately).

Well, I think that statistic is a little misleading. Antigra was one of the followers (that is, who wasn't a relative of the leader; there are numerous cases of a child of a leader assassinating them to rise to power) who succeeded (along with Rasconza, who betrayed and murdered Barranca solely so that he could take the latter's job), but there are countless examples of vermin followers that tried to kill their leaders, regardless of whether they were successful (whether due to their getting killed in the attempt, or not finishing the job, like Zwilt the Shade). Antigra's just one of the few who got lucky.

[Gonff the Mousethief]

Kinda going off of what SaLT said here, one thing I noticed a lot was the outgoing of Dibbuns or youngsters in the series. Now, I'm not talking about Matthias or someone like that, but to someone like the young hedgehog in Eulalia! Who went back to Redwall and gathered an army to help fight. He wans't the big or tough, but he did it. Same with Brome in a way. I dunno, I read these when I was in sixth grade so that stood out a bit.

[The Skarzs]

What points about leadership does Brian Jacques make throughout the series?
How could these leadership traits be implemented in the real world?

I don't really see how effective leadership in the books would be any different from what really happens in real life.

[Grond]

obviously someone like Trunn who had an army 7500 strong had to be a good leader to keep it together

I'm not sure I'd go that far. He could have inherited it or leeched it off from his father. This might sound unfairly blunt, but I'm not impressed by his ability to rule over an army of blue-furred lugs through his officers for a little while before they all got frittered away fighting vastly smaller forces. Obviously the "Grand Fragorl" wasn't impressed with his leadership, nor were the thousands that defected along with her. If Ungatt's presence was anything special, I'd think that, even if his followers weren't loyal, they should have at least been too afraid to leave.

[he also got abandoned by his adoptive son Taggerung because he had become too cruel and bad tempered (bad traits for a leader)

I don't think Sawney was cruel or bad-tempered for a vermin leader. Skinning the fox to death was harsh (understatement of the month ), but honestly is it any worse than what a lot of the other villains have done? From what I recall, the book actually implies that Sawney was unusually lenient for a vermin warlord up to that point, letting Tagg get by with not doing the verminy things that were expected from someone in his position. If I had to guess I'd say the only major villain leader I can think of in the entire series who Tagg could have conceivably stuck with was Verdauga Greeneyes. Tagg is not a good benchmark to use to gauge the degree of Sawney's personality flaws. Judging by how opposed to killing and violence that Tagg showed himself to be, I'd say Sawney was doing a great job to keep him with the clan for as long as he did.

and finally he was killed by one of his own followers/clan members- Antigra (he is I think the only vermin leader who was killed/assassinated by one of his own followers deliberately).

Well, I think that statistic is a little misleading. Antigra was one of the followers (that is, who wasn't a relative of the leader; there are numerous cases of a child of a leader assassinating them to rise to power) who succeeded (along with Rasconza, who betrayed and murdered Barranca solely so that he could take the latter's job), but there are countless examples of vermin followers that tried to kill their leaders, regardless of whether they were successful (whether due to their getting killed in the attempt, or not finishing the job, like Zwilt the Shade). Antigra's just one of the few who got lucky.

1. Well yes the Grand Fragoral did sail away with 1/3rd of Ungatt's forces but the majority still remained until his loss to LBT. Also during the events of the book, Trunn wasn't really mentally and also strategically there. First he had continuing dreams of a badger and they drove him a bit crazy and paranoid. He became obsessed with the badger in his dreams and lost sleep over it. Because of this he wasn't in the best state of mind. That likely played a role in her decision to betray him. Secondly he had "strategic problems" because the hares and otters and others mounted guerrilla resistance against his army and starved them out of food. (As an aside: I don't think there is any other villain who conquered Salamandastron or was able to hold it for any period of time apart from him.) This could be due to the fact that he didn't have experience having to fight guerrilla forces and provide food for his army while they were stationary. They seemed to have sailed from one place to another.  Also no other vermin was shown to be particularly effective at fighting guerrilla resistance, so I can't really think of a vermin leader's army who could have done much better in such a position. Given his obsession with the badger and the fact that he arrived when the Grand Fragoral sailed off- I'd argue their fear of him was greatly diminished because he was obsessed with LBT and would not sail after them until he first dealt with the badger and secondly ships are extremely difficult to track once they're gone or have been sailing for a while.

2. However the problem with Tagg sticking around is its unclear if they ever fought any actual wars or skirmishes against other Juska clans or any other beasts. It does not specify if Tagg didn't kill anyone in the heat of battle or if he just didn't kill other Juskarath clan beasts while they were training/fighting etc... and this is what Sawney found surprising. But I don't see anything in the book to suggest Sawney was to lenient for a vermin leader except towards Antigra. I'd say Sawney could be both lenient and also cruel. Depending on the character and his mood. For example he crippled Filch when the fox nearly killed the baby Taggerung but he let him live. After that he bullied him and threw his dagger at him, missing him, and then he made him go retrieve it- telling him he would only cut off his ear and spare his life if he did. For this he ran away, got captured by Tagg, and then Sawney wanted him skinned alive. So his attitude toward Filch was both lenient but also cruel at the same time. As I mentioned earlier he was quite lenient to Antigra but this ties into my last point.

3. Its important for a vermin leader to be able to detect potential rebellion and then to kill those conspirators. Examples of vermin leaders who did this and successfully foiled assassination plots against them would be Cluny, Damug, Swartt etc... I wouldn't say that Barranca and Rasconza is the best example here. First Barranca wasn't a typical vermin leader- he was quite brave and was also "nice" and well liked by his crew. He didn't seem to rule by fear. Barranca also had no reason to suspect this kind of betrayal, Rasconza hatched his plot to take over leadership during the Sampetra civil war, its not mentioned that Rasconza hated him or had a grudge for a long period of time. While Sawney knew that Antigra hated him for many seasons, since the birth of her son Gruven Zann and the killing of her mate Gruven I, yet he spared her. He also never tormented her like he did Felch. This is a bad trait for a vermin leader to leave rebels/enemies within their ranks alive. As soon as Ruggan Bor figured out that Antigra was conspiring against him he killed her.

[Ashleg]

It's stated in the book on page 252 that the Taggerung never killed anybeast but the big eel.

[alexandre]

*applauds Ashleg*

[Groddil]

It's stated in the book on page 252 that the Taggerung never killed anybeast but the big eel.

*Cough*Vallug Bowbeast and Eefara*cough*

[Ashleg]

That was waaaay after that point, though, Grodd.
And Sawney was already dead.

[The Skarzs]

Sawney's death was actually one of the most fascinating. Like, he died pretty early on in the book by someone you wouldn't have expected to have killed him. It would have been interesting to see more of him.