Argulor is one of my favorite characters. I consider him to be the greatest (most powerful) bird in the series, he's one of the few creatures who could be directly classified as gray (although, considering that we only ever see him hunt and kill villains, one could make the argument that he's actually kind of good), and he eats for survival, not out of malice. He had a healthy relationship of mutual respect with Verdauga Greeneyes, who is the series' best warlord.
Add in that he's aging -- implying vast experience, albeit with some of the infirmities that inevitably accompany seniority -- and his quirky desire to taste pine marten, and you have a complete character. His fight and win over Bane is one of my favorites, like I mentioned in my "Best Fights" topic.
Anyone else have anything to say about this cool golden eagle?
Argulor is also a favorite of mine. He's beast, somewhat classy, and amazingly well portrayed.
But he most certainly is not gray. He is a villain. He ate, and thus killed, many creatures. Whether hero or villain, is beside the point. He was neutral, yes. But not gray. Asmodeus was neutral, but not gray. He is something-ish of a bystander, you might say. He is out of the struggle for Mossflower, all he wanted was to taste pine marten.
LordTBT posted an essay on the Redwall Abbey, entitled Asmodeus something. I don't remember the name, but it was in response to an essay about Asmodeus being neutral/gray. He, like Argulor, was not gray, but neutral.
I was actually kind of sad when he died, I liked the guy a lot. And Ashleg, I liked him too. It was one of those struggles when you wanted it to always continue with out end. Because end meant tragedy.
Essay mentioned:
http://redwall.wikia.com/wiki/Essay:Asmodeus%27_Neutrality:A_Rebuttal
I read both the original essay and the rebuttal, and I agree that Asmodeus is clearly a villain, but I'm not sure that applying the same title to Argulor is quite fair.
In the rebuttal of Asmodeus' greyness, it is mentioned that in addition to being repeatedly called and referred to by titles that suggest evil, that he possesses three traits:
Quote from: Asmodeus' Neutrality: A Rebuttal
* Indiscriminate killing of vermin and goodbeasts by devouring or hypnotizing
* Collection of trinkets from victims
* Accumulation of attractive objects that are not his property
Argulor does not collect anything from any of his prey, so it's pretty clear that he isn't a thief, unlike Asmodeus, which automatically writes off the latter two points.
The first point, I would say isn't quite valid because Argulor is only recorded as killing villains -- the various rats, weasels, etc. While Chibb the Robin was afraid of him, Argulor never did any harm to him, and we never see or hear of him attempting to prey on the squirrels, otters, or mice, even when he could have done so. This is contrary to Asmodeus, who indiscriminately kills everything in sight. Matthias had to kill Asmodeus to survive; there is no similar scene where a hero is threatened by Argulor, at any point in the story, nor is it stated that he has definitely attacked woodlanders in the past.
I would say that his killing creatures is simply for survival, unlike Asmodeus, who clearly takes a twisted pleasure in hypnotizing his prey before consuming them. Killing creatures alone shouldn't be considered an evil trait, if it is a necessary part of the animal's diet.
For instance, in
Redwall, we see Matthias killing a fish (to be specific, a grayling) in the first part of the book -- which Abbot Mortimer states as being acceptable, since it was only "for a meal to make".
Likewise, the Corim pike Stormfin devoured the Gloomer, and it seems implied that the otters kept him around just for that kind of situation. The story itself casts Stormfin in a heroic light, in his battle with the villainous water rat, so clearly nobody has any qualms about him eating another creature.
Finally, Snakefish devoured hordes of (sentient) villainous toads. When he mentions that he will have to eat the heroes (Martin, Gonff, and Dinny) if they can't come up with an escape plan, they themselves don't seem to hold a grudge against him for that.
These three examples all seem to indicate cases where living creatures -- in some cases, sentient beings -- were killed and consumed, and the book doesn't regard the ones who did it as being particularly evil or of low moral character.
Considering the golden eagle is carnivorous in real life, it stands to reason that Argulor would have to kill
something if he wanted to continue living, so it seems fair to me that he should be regarded in the same way as the other characters above, and considered to be gray -- if not necessarily good.
Argulor was crazy over tasting a pine marten. That gives him an interest in wanting to take pleasure in killing, he was fantasing (sp) over eating such an animal. Also, as pine marten was regarded as the only thing he hadn't eaten, he probably ate some peaceful woodlanders over his life. No doubt a good deal. Also, I wasn't comparing him to Asmodues in the remotest degree. As such, I was not using any point in that essay to analyze Argulor's villaincy.
Argulor was not a gray character. His nature is clearly against that. His thoughts reflected he might have eaten Chibb if the robin had stayed about. A gray character is the following: a normally villain or hero race member that is against their normal breed and sides on the opposite spectrum. Gray characters are not characters that are both good and bad, no such characters exist in the series. Just pointing that last statement out, btw.
Blaggut was gray. He was a rat, rats are almost always bad.
Argulor serves as an eagle. Eagles are very varied, and good/bad, hero/villain is almost split equal. Thus, we discern Argulor by his actions.
-Killing and feasting on creatures as he pleases.
Any chance of that being good? I think not.
As a final point, let's look at Zassaliss and his two siblings.
They killed and maliciously devoured both heroes and villains. Argulor ate villains and heroes as well. They are all certainly villains. As such, your point on Argulor's grayity being judged based on equal treatment of villains and heroes is void. He, like the adders (including Asmodeus, and actually, all adders) was an independent force.
Quote from: Taggerung_of_Redwall on July 06, 2011, 02:44:50 AM
Argulor was crazy over tasting a pine marten. That gives him an interest in wanting to take pleasure in killing, he was fantasing (sp) over eating such an animal.
Fantasizing.
Well, if you're going to eat something
anyway, it might as well at least be tasty. ;)
QuoteAlso, as pine marten was regarded as the only thing he hadn't eaten, he probably ate some peaceful woodlanders over his life.
Unfortunately, I don't have my battered copy of
Mossflower handy to research Argulor. I do recall that in the book; however, it's possible that he might have decided against eating woodlanders at some point. As it is, I'll have to concede this point, that it is possible and even probable that Argulor ate woodlanders at some point prior to Mossflower. However, I must still note that in the actual book, we don't see him kill any good characters -- even in the case of Chibb, the only part I remember (thanks to it being on the wiki) is his pondering whether he's getting slower or the small birds are getting faster.
That doesn't preclude the possibility that he would've eaten Chibb if he could've, but at the same time, it could just be musing over the relative speeds of animals. ;) I myself've had similar thoughts when little kids dart around my legs. ;)
Quote... I wasn't comparing him to Asmodues in the remotest degree. As such, I was not using any point in that essay to analyze Argulor's villaincy.
Well, it seems to me that when you post a link to an essay about Asmodeus being, in fact, a villain, and say that just as Asmodeus is neutral (not gray), neither is Argulor, that you intend for at least some of the points mentioned in that article to be relevant to the discussion.
Quote
-Killing and feasting on creatures as he pleases.
Remember that the three examples I listed in my last post (the Redwallers, Stormfin, and Snakefish) all did the same thing, and are yet well or neutrally regarded.
Try not to take this too seriously; I'm just having some fun playing eagle's advocate, and having one of the first debates here.
On the subject of Asmodeus and Argulor being compared, I meant only both were indepednet forces. Not along the lines of them being similar beyond that.
I was overly stating my point in my last post.
edit: I'm not taking this too seriosuly. It's been a long time since I've argued, I'm liking this tremednously.
I don't blame Argulor for wanting pine marten. I looked up pine martens on the internet and found that one of their only predators are golden eagles.
QuoteI looked up pine martens on the internet and found that one of their only predators are golden eagles.
Coincidentally, the only other predator they have happens to be the red fox -- e.g., Rasconza.
It's almost as though Brian Jacques looked up the Wikipedia article on pine martens when he was writing Mossflower and Pearls of Lutra. ;)
Funny! Totally off topic, but I looked up otters, and they are called 'Enhydra lutris' (or something like that) hence Pearls of Lutra!
Lutra is actually the Latin word for otter, as is stated by Mr. Jacques at the back of his book. And yes Brian did look up the characteristics of the animals before he wrote about them. And thirdly, I agree with James Gryphon.
It's not fair. He never got to eat pine marten. >:(
Aye, an; Asleg got awa' zafely, or at leazt az far az we ken.
I like to think that Ashleg went off into the forest and lived out the rest of his days as a peaceful woodlander, growing all his own food and living honestly.
Although Stryk Redkite is a kite, and Argulor is a golden eagle, maybe Stryk is a distant relative of Argulor since they are both from the mountains and they are both fierce birds of prey
That seems doubtful; I'm not sure that kites and eagles can really mate, so I'm not sure where their bloodlines would have merged, and besides most great birds of prey prefer mountain residences, so it isn't an unusual coincidence that they would've come from mountainous regions.
It's also worth noting that Styrk Redkite came from the north, whereas Argulor, before returning to his "vacation home" in Mossflower, used to preside over the mountains somewhere in the west. Those're somewhat different regions.
Hmm, so could Argular have come from the mountain range that Martin & co went under by going through the bat cave? I'm not too good at Redwall geography, so I could be wrong about this......
I wonder, if Argulor were in better physical shape than in mossflower, he would be able to beat that eagle from salamandastron (i think). King macphearsome, if I'm not mistaken. He guards the Icetor flowers. What do you guys think?
don't forget why bother with one robin when there is a slower and plumper source of food a kotir?
I don't really think that Argulor would have had second thoughts about eating Chib. As I recall, he was just waking up when he saw Chib, and wasn't really awake enough to do anything about it.
One point against Argulor's "grayness" is that Chib (clearly a good guy) was afraid of him. Argulor wasn't the main villain in the story, but I think that he classifies as sort of a "Minor Villain"--perhaps like Badredd.
Quote from: Dotti on August 31, 2011, 02:21:27 AM
Hmm, so could Argular have come from the mountain range that Martin & co went under by going through the bat cave? I'm not too good at Redwall geography, so I could be wrong about this......
I belieive he came from the place that dumble and thrugg had go to get the ice flowers in salmadastron
Argulor is totally awesome.
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 26, 2012, 05:48:31 PM
Argulor is totally awesome.
totally!
...somewhere in the depths of mossflower a thousand-eyes tunic slip to the ground...
Quote from: Ciaran Galedeep on March 28, 2012, 11:18:43 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 26, 2012, 05:48:31 PM
Argulor is totally awesome.
totally!
...somewhere in the depths of mossflower a thousand-eyes tunic slip to the ground...
Nom nom nom *belch* hhhhhmmmm 8.2 he was okay. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 28, 2012, 11:22:33 PM
Quote from: Ciaran Galedeep on March 28, 2012, 11:18:43 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 26, 2012, 05:48:31 PM
Argulor is totally awesome.
totally!
...somewhere in the depths of mossflower a thousand-eyes tunic slip to the ground...
Nom nom nom *belch* hhhhhmmmm 8.2 he was okay. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
would get a higher score if they ever took a bath....
Quote from: Ciaran Galedeep on March 31, 2012, 09:12:50 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 28, 2012, 11:22:33 PM
Quote from: Ciaran Galedeep on March 28, 2012, 11:18:43 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 26, 2012, 05:48:31 PM
Argulor is totally awesome.
totally!
...somewhere in the depths of mossflower a thousand-eyes tunic slip to the ground...
Nom nom nom *belch* hhhhhmmmm 8.2 he was okay. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
would get a higher score if they ever took a bath....
zzzzzzz..pppiiinnnneeee mmmmaaaarrrrrtttiiiinnnn....zzzzzzzzzzz
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 31, 2012, 10:39:55 PM
Quote from: Ciaran Galedeep on March 31, 2012, 09:12:50 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 28, 2012, 11:22:33 PM
Quote from: Ciaran Galedeep on March 28, 2012, 11:18:43 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 26, 2012, 05:48:31 PM
Argulor is totally awesome.
totally!
...somewhere in the depths of mossflower a thousand-eyes tunic slip to the ground...
Nom nom nom *belch* hhhhhmmmm 8.2 he was okay. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
would get a higher score if they ever took a bath....
zzzzzzz..pppiiinnnneeee mmmmaaaarrrrrtttiiiinnnn....zzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzz...flying stoats....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Quote from: Ciaran Galedeep on March 31, 2012, 11:04:09 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 31, 2012, 10:39:55 PM
Quote from: Ciaran Galedeep on March 31, 2012, 09:12:50 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 28, 2012, 11:22:33 PM
Quote from: Ciaran Galedeep on March 28, 2012, 11:18:43 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 26, 2012, 05:48:31 PM
Argulor is totally awesome.
totally!
...somewhere in the depths of mossflower a thousand-eyes tunic slip to the ground...
Nom nom nom *belch* hhhhhmmmm 8.2 he was okay. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
would get a higher score if they ever took a bath....
zzzzzzz..pppiiinnnneeee mmmmaaaarrrrrtttiiiinnnn....zzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzz...flying stoats....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzz....Flying stoats get bumped out of the air by Gonff's cloud (read Mossflower if you don't know what I'm talkng about :D) easy pickin's...zzzzzzzz
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 01, 2012, 01:50:18 AM
Quote from: Ciaran Galedeep on March 31, 2012, 11:04:09 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 31, 2012, 10:39:55 PM
Quote from: Ciaran Galedeep on March 31, 2012, 09:12:50 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 28, 2012, 11:22:33 PM
Quote from: Ciaran Galedeep on March 28, 2012, 11:18:43 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 26, 2012, 05:48:31 PM
Argulor is totally awesome.
totally!
...somewhere in the depths of mossflower a thousand-eyes tunic slip to the ground...
Nom nom nom *belch* hhhhhmmmm 8.2 he was okay. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
would get a higher score if they ever took a bath....
zzzzzzz..pppiiinnnneeee mmmmaaaarrrrrtttiiiinnnn....zzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzz...flying stoats....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzz....Flying stoats get bumped out of the air by Gonff's cloud (read Mossflower if you don't know what I'm talkng about :D) easy pickin's...zzzzzzzz
:D :D :D :D
zzzzzz...just one little pine martennnn...zzzzzzzz
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on April 01, 2012, 11:37:17 AM
Quote from: danflorreguba on April 01, 2012, 01:50:18 AM
Quote from: Ciaran Galedeep on March 31, 2012, 11:04:09 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 31, 2012, 10:39:55 PM
Quote from: Ciaran Galedeep on March 31, 2012, 09:12:50 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 28, 2012, 11:22:33 PM
Quote from: Ciaran Galedeep on March 28, 2012, 11:18:43 PM
Quote from: danflorreguba on March 26, 2012, 05:48:31 PM
Argulor is totally awesome.
totally!
...somewhere in the depths of mossflower a thousand-eyes tunic slip to the ground...
Nom nom nom *belch* hhhhhmmmm 8.2 he was okay. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
would get a higher score if they ever took a bath....
zzzzzzz..pppiiinnnneeee mmmmaaaarrrrrtttiiiinnnn....zzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzz...flying stoats....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzz....Flying stoats get bumped out of the air by Gonff's cloud (read Mossflower if you don't know what I'm talkng about :D) easy pickin's...zzzzzzzz
:D :D :D :D
zzzzzz...just one little pine martennnn...zzzzzzzz
zzzzzz....that fox was a little too wriggly....zzzzzzzzzzzzz
So, Argulor wasn't good or bad?
Not really. More to the good side though.
The only reason one might think he was more good than bad was because it's never mentioned that he ate any good guys. He may well have in his previous seasons, which is why he's regarded as a "gray" character.
I know, I know, but still his influence was more good than bad.
Agreed.
I was debatting between posting this here or in the redwall gray characters thread but seeing as it has to do with Asmodous and him being evil or not I think I'll post it here. First of there isn't a doubt in my mind that BJ put Asmodous as being evil- just look at his name it means devil and it says in the book that even the Abbot Mortimer would not of healed an injured adder which shows they where arguably the most evil however IMO Jacques does not justify this overt evil of Asmodous or other adders.
Asmodous killed both good and evil animals but only because he ate them. He hypnothized them because that's what snakes do to their prey so that it doesn't get away it wasn't for any sadistic pleasure and he killed them quickly with one bite. Yes he took trophies from them both from their bodyparts eg a foxes tail and also objects from them such as the sword of Martin the Warrior but those were only byproducts from his food and taking those isnt overtly evil think of gnoff mousethief, the vole theif it was I think from Rakkety Tam and that vole from Eulalia-these characters were thiefs yet not evil-they did not even have to steal some of the things they did. Now if one looks at another character in the same book such as Captain Snow he also killed good guys- mice and shrews but no mention is made of him killing evil creatures such as rats, stoats, weasels etc... So he only killed 2 good species whereas Asmodous was indiscriminate this would make Snow more evil no?? Now what Captain Snow did have that Asmodous did not or it is never described is that he had honour eg he didn't kill Mathias due to the medal he had from Basil who had saved Snow's life and he kept his promise of not eating mice or shrews after Matthias returned with MTW's sword and had slain Asmodous. In a way Captain Snow could be linked to Verduga in that he was ruthless but he also had honour at the same time. Looking at Argulor what you say is true he never did kill a good species but in turn the good species never tried to kill him unlike with the 3 joined adders in Triss where the Redwallers wanted to premeditate their murder.
Now at the sametime other gray characters in the books such as say the Gwartribe and the pygmy shrew tribe in the book Martin the Warrior where much more evil IMO than some of the evil characters like the adders- Asmodous and the 3 adders from Triss. The Gwartribe wanted to kill the travellers for fun eg playing a game of catch them and throw them off the mountain and if they refused they would kill them with stone axes. They would of killed for game or fun which is in many ways worse than what many warlords in the series did. The pygmy shrews in that same book practiced slavery something that is certainly much worse than taking trophies from your food. Or even looking at the bankvole drew who was seen as a gray tending to evil character yet he was much less evil than either the pygmy shrew tribe or the Gwartribe. He was looking for his own interests and who can blame him he was a slave and he would not kill for fun. Also the only reason he raised the alarm was that if he didnt he would have been killed- reason being that he was Badrang's spy and following the weapon's incident he would have been killed had the slaves escaped and had he not raised the alarm. The slaves at the same time would not take him with them because he was seen as being a traitor.
But getting back on topic I personally see the eagles,snakes,pikes,sharks, etc... as being wild beasts whereas the good and evil creatures- mice,otters,badgers,hedgehogs,squirrels and stoats,ferrets,rats,weasels,wildcats etc... are "humans" its not really possible to refer to a wild animal as being good or evil as that's a "human" construct. They do what their nature is eg carnivores kill other animals and eat them because if they didn't they would die.
I didn't see why Argulor was so important.
yeah, he was just an okay character to me.
I kinda liked him.... But he didn' really do much.
Well, he must have had SOME reason. But what?
He was a convenient way to dispose of that fox that comes later.
Hmm. Well yeah, but I think he had a greater reason than that.
Quote from: Gulo on April 25, 2012, 04:43:55 AM
But getting back on topic I personally see the eagles,snakes,pikes,sharks, etc... as being wild beasts whereas the good and evil creatures- mice,otters,badgers,hedgehogs,squirrels and stoats,ferrets,rats,weasels,wildcats etc... are "humans" its not really possible to refer to a wild animal as being good or evil as that's a "human" construct. They do what their nature is eg carnivores kill other animals and eat them because if they didn't they would die.
Well put.
Well there are good and evil animals now!
Quote from: Gulo on April 25, 2012, 04:43:55 AM
But getting back on topic I personally see the eagles,snakes,pikes,sharks, etc... as being wild beasts whereas the good and evil creatures- mice,otters,badgers,hedgehogs,squirrels and stoats,ferrets,rats,weasels,wildcats etc... are "humans" its not really possible to refer to a wild animal as being good or evil as that's a "human" construct. They do what their nature is eg carnivores kill other animals and eat them because if they didn't they would die.
Ah, if only every post on the forums were as detailed and thought-out like this! ;) You make an interesting point.
Thought out? yes. Imaginative? Not even close. Yes he/she definitely thought it out well, but it is almost an anti-Redwall series comment if you consider it! And really if you think about it again, who says animals can't be good or evil? Dolphins tend to be very kind hearted to humans they meet and many others as well. Living proof of good animals. It is harder to find an example of an evil animal because no matter which animal I name, someone is going to mention that "Carnivorous nature" and say that's why they appear evil... And on the flip side. This is a fictious series for crying out loud! The point is so you can just relax and enjoy a great story! Not about accuracy!
Quote from: danflorreguba on May 05, 2012, 01:37:57 PM
Thought out? yes. Imaginative? Not even close. Yes he/she definitely thought it out well, but it is almost an anti-Redwall series comment if you consider it! And really if you think about it again, who says animals can't be good or evil? Dolphins tend to be very kind hearted to humans they meet and many others as well. Living proof of good animals. It is harder to find an example of an evil animal because no matter which animal I name, someone is going to mention that "Carnivorous nature" and say that's why they appear evil... And on the flip side. This is a fictious series for crying out loud! The point is so you can just relax and enjoy a great story! Not about accuracy!
well i think they were getting at is that Brian Jacques uses our perception of creatures (ie. good vs bad.) too create the character personality. ie. a fox has always been a sly and untrustworthy, same with the insults that we use, ie when you call someone a "rat" or "weasel" as an example, i bet you've never been called a, "hare" or "otter!"
On topic please. So I think I know why Argulor was so important. It's because Chibb's job would be a lot easier, the evil horde would not have run back into the castle, and if Mr. Jacques didn't have him, then I think that the fox would have eventually taken over Kotir, thus Tsarmina would be killed, and that means Redwall would never be built and Mossflower would not be free yet.
Not all eagles in the series are portrayed as bad. In the book Salamandastron, the Wild King McPhearsome is from the Northern Mountains and he is a golden eagle, same as Argulor. It is implied that he eats all sorts of woodlanders, both goodbeasts and vermin, indiscriminantly-he decideds not to eat Thrugg and Dumble even though he could have easily overpowered them because he admired Dumble's bravery.
I think Argulor was just old and in need of a quick and easy meal. The rather stupid vermin that populated Kotir provided easy pickings for an older eagle who was no longer in his prime.
I'm just saying. ;D ;) :P
I like old Argy. I consider him gray as well. His and Bane's death was pretty darn epic.
Quote from: General Ironbeak on December 24, 2013, 09:34:44 PM
I like old Argy. I consider him gray as well. His and Bane's death was pretty darn epic.
He certainly put the story on an interesting line. I was almost disappointed when they were killed. :D
I didn't like Argulor too much. I think he mostly stood in the way of the story and maybe slowed it down a bit. Of course it added a bit of excitement every once and awhile but I don't think he really helped or did anything to the story. I did like his and Bane's fight though. :D