What made vermin go bad?

[Izeroth]

 Assuming Mossflower had the same development cycle as our world, then most of the good beasts share a common ancestor with vermin. That being said, why do you think vermin went bad and goodbeaats went good? Did the harsh habitat of vermin force them to adapt and become more cruel, did some prehistoric event cause the two groups to seperate? Did both group seperate for entirely natural reasons?

[CaptainRocktree]

Assuming Mossflower had the same development cycle as our world, then most of the good beasts share a common ancestor with vermin. That being said, why do you think vermin went bad and goodbeaats went good? Did the harsh habitat of vermin force them to adapt and become more cruel, did some prehistoric event cause the two groups to seperate? Did both group seperate for entirely natural reasons?

I find it much like the Bible as God created the world he created Adam and Eve then they had children and the line of Able was good and Cain was cursed due to Cain killing able the line of good was passed over to Seth and then there ancestors on Cain's side were cursed and Seth's good. Thats my thinking do to how BJ was a Catholic that most of the evidence includes he was a Christain (See Was Brian Jacques a Christain topic!)
That's just my 2 cents 

[JangoCoolguy]

They're just naturally bad. Heck, even in real life those kinds of animals start doing bad things at an early age.

Though it's mainly Jacques wanting good and evil to be defined by species to make things black and white and simple.

[The Skarzs]

Ferrets are more mischievous than bad per say, and are actually far more useful as pets than mice, rats, and other varmints.

Though it's mainly Jacques wanting good and evil to be defined by species to make things black and white and simple.

This, however, I agree with.

[Izeroth]

 Trust me, squirrels and mice are very annoying. They steal food from bird feeders and eat dog food. In their natural habitat (they are a problem on islands) ferrets don't cause trouble for humans really. But, anyway, this topic is not about discussing that. The main point of this topic is to discuss why you think vermin went evil from a lore point of view. Obviously, we know that the real life explanation is that BJ wanted to simplify things.

[James Gryphon]

You know, I'm not sure if I've thought much of it before, but I'm not sure that there's evidence that every 'vermin' creature in the world is evil. I know that Mr. Jacques said that the vermin are bad, but he said that in the context of someone asking him if any good vermin would appear in the books -- not whether or not there are any good vermin anywhere in the Redwall world. It is possible that there are good or decent vermin, but that the books don't talk much about them, since they're off minding their own business instead of attacking woodlanders.

As it is, even though the books focus on the worst elements of vermin society, we have evidence that not all vermin are completely bad. Bowfleg's horde was content to stay encamped in a good living location, and probably would have continued to live there indefinitely, if Swartt Sixclaw hadn't poisoned their leader and taken over. There were also rats that farmed the land at Castle Marl after the book (albeit under duress). Many of the vermin characters we see who are not horde officers or pirates, like Lousewort and Sneezewort, don't seem to be particularly bad creatures. I'm not saying that they didn't do bad things, but I think some of that could be explained by the harsh culture and the rulers that they live under.

That leads in to my next point, that the culture they live in undoubtedly does have a way of making sure the meanest, most ruthless vermin rise to the top. This might have originally been because of tough living conditions, but by now I think it's mostly done because they've "always" done it that way, as far back as anyone remembers. Anyway, once a hard leader is in charge, they enact policies that perpetuate that lifestyle. That can be changed, though; as shown in Loamhedge, vermin are capable of appointing more pacific leaders and living less violent lives.

So while it is true that the vermin groups we've seen are villainous, that doesn't necessarily mean that they all are. It's possible that there are good vermin living peaceful lives somewhere, but that it never came up because the books mainly cover periods of conflict in the part of the world where there are a lot of savage vermin bands.

[The Mask]

I don't think a race can 'go' bad. Actions are what makes someone bad. You can't be 'born bad either.

[Gonff the Mousethief]

Well, let's say goodbeasts were not very nice to let's say, a group of rats, and they had a grudge against them. They would then tell their children bad things about them, and they will tell others such as ferrets, foxes, and stoats about them, then there would be a big difference between the two.

[Rusvul]

I don't think a race can 'go' bad. Actions are what makes someone bad. You can't be 'born bad either.

No, you can't, but it seems vermin are.

[Delthion]

They're not really born bad, it's the bad parenting done by the vermin like Swartt. (spelling?)

[Rusvul]

That wouldn't explain Veil, I really don't think that bad treatment in the first two months of existence can make someone a bad person.

[Cornflower MM]

I don't think a race can 'go' bad. Actions are what makes someone bad. You can't be 'born bad either.

No, you can't, but it seems vermin are.

I don't think vermin are born bad, necessarily, but maybe with an inclination towards bad. Or perhaps it was just the example that they are set. Perhaps because the races of squirrels, otters, moles, hedgehogs, badgers, and hares don't like them, the vermin don't like them back. And while the "better" races just sit there (Basically), the vermin do something about the fact that they don't like them. Or maybe they're just poor foragers.

That wouldn't explain Veil, I really don't think that bad treatment in the first two months of existence can make someone a bad person.

Prejudiced from the Abbeydwellers, maybe?

[Delthion]

That wouldn't explain Veil, I really don't think that bad treatment in the first two months of existence can make someone a bad person.

Many people turn bad because of something that happened that happened to them that they don't remember because they were too young.

[Cornflower MM]

That wouldn't explain Veil, I really don't think that bad treatment in the first two months of existence can make someone a bad person.

Many people turn bad because of something that happened to them that they don't remember because they were too young.

Well, once you think about it, Veil was really more igfnored than anything else - Swartt didn't care about him, his nurse was. . . . . Probably really only indifferent, so on and so forth. The only 'bad' thing that happened to him was being left behind in sa ditch - And being picked up soon by Skipper or one of his otters.

[willruth]

I think it is just that Brian Jaques used pre-made human stereotypes for his characters (e.g. "a rat")and he liked to occasionally brake these rules.In the absence of this though, I think that the vermin have developed to be nattrally cruel and tyrannical because of their development.The woodlanders managed to survive thanks to the development of positive social skills, whereas the vermin developed a preference to the survivalist,eat-or-be-eaten approach early in their history!(I know a lot about social evolution!! )