What made vermin go bad?

[Wylder Treejumper]

Hey Sandpaw! Why dontcha introduce yourself in the front lawns, in the Introduction Topic?

As for calling someone vermin, I believe that would be an insult.

[Hickory]

Interesting topic. I've recently finished a series of books involving squirrels, mice and hedgehogs, where there is no Redwall type foe beasts, and it's just the three above species.

Has anybody read this series? That main character is a squirrel named Urchin.

[Izeroth]

 It may be insulting to call someone vermin, but it's a universal term used by pretty much all Goodbeasts.

[Romsca]

Interesting topic. I've recently finished a series of books involving squirrels, mice and hedgehogs, where there is no Redwall type foe beasts, and it's just the three above species.

Has anybody read this series? That main character is a squirrel named Urchin.

I have! The Mistmantle Chronicles? I didn't like them as much, though

[Maudie]

Ok, I need to gather my thoughts on the subject.

I think...that with the way the vermin were raised, they paid more attention to the wild side of their instincts. You can see that even in our world. Animals that BJ made "bad" are all more of a wild, competitive animals in our world. Whereas the creatures that he made "good" are usually viewed as more "timid" and "tame."
But there is fault in my logic, I realize. Badgers are generally viewed as vicious creatures. I think BJ took the more warlike, fighting species and put most of them in the bad category, but decided that it wasn't really logical for all the bad guys to be fighters and the good guys to be peacemakers.
Sorry, just rambling thoughts.

[Hickory]

well, hares don't necesaryily fight in the real world, and many ferrets, stoats and weasels are bred for pets and coats, so it's not that they are consciously bad in the real world, they just have a "self-defense" instinct. Bzut in redwall, they obviously want to be bad, and enjoy it. If you look at good creatures, they can actually tend to be pompous and overrulling (voles. Voles. VOLES!  I'll let you find other pompous, overruling creatures). So you could say that these animals persecuted the "bad" ones (notice how almost every single "good" creature has a name like"vermin" for the "bad" creatures? Noticably Skippers) and the "bad" creatures said "Well shut up" and left, or killed, the "good" creatures and their domain. This may not go for certain species (like hares, who seem to constantly be cooped up in their mountain and rarely encounter "bad" creatures in scenes that don't include fighting.) Now badgers and hares mayy only give hard feelings to "bad" creatures since they (badgers and hares) feel a sense of protection to other "Good" creatures and wish to... prosecute attackers. Some species, like squirrels, mice and otters were more warlike (squirrels and mice scrrabble over food, and otters may actually fight) so they choose to stand up to the "bad" creatures, thus reversing the fight. This may also be a reson for the appearence of Kotir. The "good" animals built it for a fortress againstt bad animals (support: "bad" animals are always bad structure builder, annd when they build houses and forts it is usually slave labor).
Just a thought

THE MATRIX!!!!!

[LT Sandpaw]

If this was anything like the real world Badgers would be rampaging monsters eating everything.

[Eulaliaaa!]

I think vermin in the Redwall world are a lot like orcs in The Lord of the Rings. They're pure evil, and they don't know how to be good. I'm not saying that all vermin are always bad no matter what, because throughout the series are several vermin who aren't so bad in the end (Blaggut, Romsca, Veil). Maybe they're the same, even though I don't think there were ever good orcs.

[Stonestripe]

There are some good vermin in the books. I think 2 examples actually stayed in redwall. One went good cause he was hiding cause he stole the peals of lutra another (I can't remember which book) was with his shipmate and wanted to stay cause he loved taking care of the dibbins. I believe he gets killed when they leave though.

[The Skarzs]

That would be Graylunk, whose skeleton Tansy and Arven found, and Blaggut.
Welcome to the forum, Stonestripe! If you make a post in the Introduction Topic in the Front Lawns you can be more properly greeted.

[Lady Ashenwyte]

I think vermin in the Redwall world are a lot like orcs in The Lord of the Rings. They're pure evil, and they don't know how to be good. I'm not saying that all vermin are always bad no matter what, because throughout the series are several vermin who aren't so bad in the end (Blaggut, Romsca, Veil). Maybe they're the same, even though I don't think there were ever good orcs.

The difference between orcs and vermin is this. Orcs were bred by Morgoth/Melkor to become evil. Vermin have no such restraints.

[Machiavellian]

I believe that, if you look at the Redwall Books from a lore point of view, that because they're all written or chronicled by the Redwall Abbey Recorders, that that is why vermin are depicted as such villainous, despicable creatures so often while most goodbeasts are depicted as kind, stalwart, loyal chums through and through.

If a faction chronicling the events of their past had the mind to, they could very, very easily put their foes or those they dislike in an unfair light.

I'm not saying that this means that all vermin were simply depicted unfairly and never were actually evil, but there are certainly many points that could have been edited by Redwall Abbey Recorders to make them seem far worse, while those favored by Redwall Abbey residents could end up looking far more heroic, trustworthy and skilled.

[rrrrr]

But Deyna was good after he was raised by vermin.

[Jetthebinturong]

Which doesn't make sense. Taggerung and Outcast go against all logic. Nature does not trump nurture when it comes to personality

[The Skarzs]

Agreed. The way one speaks and acts is affected by that which the young one is surrounded by. For example, the children of immigrants to the United States usually learned to speak English, and despite their nationality they became "normal" to the area.
Of course, each and every person (creature, whatever) has their own personality that either hinders or helps said influences, but usually one brought up in an environment where everyone is caring will also care for those who care for him, just as a dog-eat-dog world would spawn its own dogs for the vicious circle.