Matthias- Bad Warrior but Good Strategist

[Gulo]

In both Redwall and Mattimeo Matthias is described as and is a natural leader/strategist however IMO he is a bad warrior. For example in Redwall with his final showdown with Cluny the Scourge he betrays his word and his honour after cutting the bell and killing Cluny with it even though Cluny had kept his side of the bargain and let friar hugo in the book and cornflower in the movie go. He did this because he could not defeat Cluny in one on one combat. Then later on in Mattimeo he makes a deal with Nadaz that the winner takes all and then when he loses to the Wearet Orlando ends up slaying Wearet and they fight the black robes irregardless even though they lost the deal and matthias had betrayed his honour once again. Then he almost gets slain by Slaggar when he falls from the plateau after his battle with the wearet and the stoning of malkaris and the freeing of the slaves. He is only rescued from death at the hands of Slagar because of the freed slaves.

What is everyone elses' opinion on matthias??

[Captain Tammo]

Matthias was never my favorite. I think he gets too much credit

[Janglur Swifteye]

Agreed. I found redwall to be the least enjoyable of Mr Jacques' books. I suppose he hadn't got all the elements figured out then.

[DanielofRedwall]

Matthias was both a great warrior and strategist, IMO. Sure, he broke the "warrior's code" or whatever, but Cluny deserved what he got. I think he was awesome.

[Tiria Wildlough]

He was an excellent warrior in both books. As for killing Cluny with the bell, I think you guys should give the poor guy a break. Would you prefer that he was gallantly slain?

[James Gryphon]

Before I start my defense of Matthias' conduct, I would like to say that I like Redwall, and the other early books in the series, precisely because Brian Jacques hadn't worked out a formula yet. This was definitely the most creative time of his career when working on the Redwall series, and I think all of the elements that are out of the norm -- the animals that appear only in Redwall, the difference in character writing (like when Abbot Mortimer harshly reprimands his troops for sleeping on duty; this wouldn't ever, ever happen in the newer books), not all of the Abbeybeasts being orphans, etc. -- are for the better.

Don't get me wrong, the newer books can be good too, and up until Lord Brocktree, I really like all of them, but the first three strike me as standing out a bit above the rest (except for maybe "The Long Patrol").

Now for the first warrior mouse.

I think the problem here is that you're assuming Matthias and Cluny had the same bargain. Cluny demanded that Matthias "throw the sword down or I'll spike [Hugo] like a lollipop".

This, Matthias clearly did not do. If he was a skilled swordthrower,  then he could have done so to the Bell, thus exactly honoring the bargain Cluny intended to make. Instead of doing that, Matthias promised to something other than what Cluny proposed:

"First let the friar go, then I promise on my honor as a warrior that I'll come down."

He does not say that the sword coming down first is a part of this, and Cluny should have seen as much. While I don't think it's a lie, because all the information was "out on the table", so to speak, it does come off as a bit deceitful... however, if Cluny's trying to negotiate Matthias' death, he should carefully examine the clauses and terms in their contract. It's just that simple. If you're going to use someone's honorable nature against them, you should make sure that the promise they're making for you is the promise you wanted them to make.

So Matthias did in fact honor his promise, though it wasn't the one Cluny had in mind. Cluny agreed to Matthias' terms in the revised contract by releasing Friar Hugo. Thus, Matthias fulfilled it by coming down after Cluny had been crushed by the bell.

As far as Mattimeo goes, Matthias' conduct is blameless in this encounter. Matthias challenged Nadaz (and then eventually any beast the Kingdom of Malkariss had to offer) to single combat just for the sake of challenging them to single combat. It was never agreed to by either side that the outcome of the duel would resolve anything in particular, other than the courage of a beast in the Kingdom of Malkariss, and Matthias himself assumes as much, by giving Orlando plans as to what to do in the event that he is killed. Thus trying to pin blame on Matthias for the battle continuing after he was gone simply doesn't make sense.

Now, Orlando the Axe actually did somewhat breach the terms of the single-combat by moving in to stop the Wearet before his duel with Matthias was technically over. However, I fail to see that this is Matthias' fault... and considering that he was clinging to a rope for dear life at the time, I don't think you can really blame him for not having the presence of mind to tell Orlando to stop.

As far as Slagar goes, all I can say is that Matthias let down his guard, one time, while he was studying a wall carving. It was a mistake, sure, but I don't think you can fairly look at everything that happened before and after this incident, then pick this out as an example of how Matthias isn't really that skilled of a warrior. We know he is because of all the vermin he killed, including his nearly killing the Wearet, who was much larger than he was, in spite of the fact that the Wearet was fully rested and Matthias had been on the move all day long, for several days.

But if we're going to pick out mistakes, to prove that the warrior who made them wasn't that good after all, I submit to you:

Then Martin dashed the blood from his vision, and with a bellow of rage he charged the wildcat.

This time she was ready. Tsarmina neatly sidestepped, cruelly striking Martin's back as he plunged by, opening further the wounds she had already inflicted.

If Martin's such a great warrior why did he make such an elementary error?

It isn't a single event that makes or breaks a warrior's career, it's their entire body of work. I can say that Matthias should have been more careful, but I can't say that getting taken out really proves he's any less of a warrior, considering the context.

[Lutra]

No warrior is flawless, and I think James eloquently points out why Matthias was a good warrior, if not necessarily the strongest mouse out there.  I feel that Matthias kept up his bargain to Cluny in Redwall...he did indeed come down--on top of the bell, but he did come down.   I'd say his honor is there.  Warriors also try to figure out how to defeat the enemy, and Matthias felt that the bell would work better than trying to dodge and strike with a sword.  Heaven forbid if he actually thought of a crafty way out!

[HeadInAnotherGalaxy]

In any caze, twaz either zave Redwall or die heroically.

[Skalrag of Marshank]

Matthias was an awesome warrior in Mattimeo, but I agree in Redwall he wasn't the best. Still, give him some credit, he killed Asmodeous. But in Mattimeo, he was an excellent warrior.

Well, in Redwall, Matthias was a new warrior. This was his first battle, and since he lived in the Abbey for as long as he can remember, he had no experience or battle training whatsoever. No warrior is perfect, no matter how much experience.

[Matthias720]

Matthias was an awesome warrior in Mattimeo, but I agree in Redwall he wasn't the best. Still, give him some credit, he killed Asmodeous. But in Mattimeo, he was an excellent warrior.

Well, in Redwall, Matthias was a new warrior. This was his first battle, and since he lived in the Abbey for as long as he can remember, he had no experience or battle training whatsoever. No warrior is perfect, no matter how much experience.

Quite true.

@James: Well put, as usual.

[Coobreedan]

Matthias saved Redwall and squashed Cluny! If it wern't for him this forum would be called 'Cluny's Castle Forum' and it would be for vermin only.

[Redwall Musician]

Yes, Matthias didn't lie when he told Cluny he would "come down". To lie is bad; to tell the truth in unclear words is different.

[Coobreedan]

Well put!

[Dotti]

I agree that Matthias did not stain his honor in the incident with Cluny.  I haven't read Mattimeo in forever, so I can't really say if Matthias made a deal with Nadaz or not.  However, that being said, I will say that Matthias is not one of my favorite characters.  The first Redwall book that I read was Mattimeo, and while it was good enough to keep me reading, I don't think I've re-read it more than once (and I frequently re-read books 4 or 5 times).  Redwall and Mattimeo are not some of my favorites for precisely the reason  James likes them:  Brian Jacques had not gotten his style together yet, and I love his unique style.  Another reason is that I've seen both of these in the TV series, and I really don't like the TV series much.  It made them seem too.....cartoony.  The exception to that is MTW, which was much better done, IMO, than the other two.
So, in summary: I don't think Matthias went back on his word to Cluny, however he's one of my least favorite main characters.

[Dannflor]

a bad WARRIOR YOU GOT TO BE CRAZY HE IS REALLY GOOD