Those we Redwallers call 'Mary-Sues.'

[Cornflower MM]

So, looking around the forum (And having been here for a while) I've seen so many topics about those characters we Redwallers call 'Mary-sues.' Such as:

Tiria Wildlough
Rose
Mariel
Abbess Lycian (High Rhulain )
Cornflower
Sister Armel
Columbine
Abbess Songbreeze
Cregga Roseeyes (Admittedly, I've only seen this once or twice)

And a few others. Now, as most of us know - Mary-sues are those female creatures being described as 'too perfect.'  I'm addressing here those points of the creatures listed above. Okay, it's probably going to either be a bad attempt or not going to convince anyone, but hey, worth a shot!

First, Tiria Wildlough:
First, we'll address her Sue points. Yeah, she's one of the best otter slingers EVER. Yeah, she makes good decisions. She's strong, reported not to be too hard on the eyes, and also said to not 'have a spare ounce of fat anywhere.' (Not an exact quote, don't repeat me on that please.) And she captures the respect and admiration of Badger Lord Mandoral in about two days. Plus she's an otter Queen. And what about her first time on the Purloined Petunia? She sings and composes sea shanties with Cuthbert then, suggesting her voice isn't too bad - And although she's never really tried cooking, she's a cook. Oh, and if I remember correctly, doesn't the end of the book (High Rhulain) suggest she gets a love interest, too, in Leatho Shellhound? So yes, the evidence points to her being a Mary Sue.

BUT, Tiria has her flaws too -  For one, against older beasts judgement, she wants to take two young creatures with her on a perilous journey, just because they're her friends. And she's known them for what then, two days? That shows MAJOR loss of judgement. A bit hasty to act as well, with not much planning seesm to be her tendency as well. She's also very young, and a bit sheltered.

My Conclusion: Certainly has grounds of a Mary-Sue. Yet not, I think, a complete one. As we see more of her character in the book, something just strikes me as too real for her to be a Sue. Cast your own conclusion, though!

Now, onto Rose!

Her Sue Side: Beautiful, sings well, charming, sweet, can make a VERY realistoc eagle cry - The list goes on and on! I'm sure all of you have seen AT LEAST one topic discussing whether or not she's a Sue, and I say the evidence certainly points that way. Yet let's look at her other, non-Sue side, shall we?

Rose is feisty, and as stubborn as a mule. She ran off to look for Brome, did she not? She insisted on going with Martin to Marshank, did she not? It's been a while since I read Martin the Warrior, but surely any maid who had the power to break Martin's heart wouldn't have been a Sue? She's headstrong as well.

My Conclusion: I'm sure you've all seen topics arguing whether or not she's a Sue. Go take a look at those very valid points if you want - As I said, it's been a while since I read that particular book. But I steadfastly say this: ROSE IS NOT A SUE.  If you want to start as argument, I'll be glad to debate by PMs. . . But not here.

Mariel's turn!

I'm going to admit it - I've never seen how Mariel is a Sue to y'all. Never. How many flaws does the mouse have?! Since I've never really seen any of her Sue-ish points, I'll go strange to the points as to why she isn't.

For one thing, Mariel uses a knotted rope as a weapon. 'Any weapon is the best weapon as long as you can use it skillfully and honourably' - Isn't that the quote from Huigh Rhulain? But, even though I agree with that, a knotted rope, to my mind, is a flawed weapon. For another, in her first book (I think ) isn't she ready to rush off to her father's rescue with a second thought? In her first book again, doesn'tr she have a temper straight from heck? Isn't she included to not think thongs through half the time, and rush in blindly? (Admittedly, the other half of the time she's a very good strategist.)

My Conclusion: I never saw how she was a Sue in the first place, so no, Mariel's not a Mary-Sue to me. Again, draw your own conclusion.

Abbess Lycian:

Okay, I've never really seen her dabted. But I have say this: She;s supposed to be a really, really young abbess. A pretty mouse, too, and smart. All the qualities that'd make a good Abbess. In the face of danger, she calmly dumps a pot of tea on Groffgut (Is the name right?) and then, typically, is shakey and all that afterwards.

. . .. . This sounds bad, but I can't really think of any points to defend her case. No, wait! Let's remember when she plops down and kinda badmouths Old Qeult with Burbee. And she has a total tea addiction!

My Conclusion: Almost a total Sue here! *Has nothing else to day on the topic of Abbess Lycian, so moves on*

Cornflower and Columbine: I melded these two together because a) They're really a lot alike, and b) I'm running out of time. I chose Cornflower as my namesake here because I seriously admire this mouse. She's smart, can keep her wits about her, doesn't have too fiery a temper, Columbine, too, is all of the above points, and I really like her too. They're both a bit sue-ish in those perspectives, but let's move on to their defending points.

They're both quick to act - Like Cornflower setting the siege tower on fire (Admittedly, that was an accident.) They both have logical heads on their shoulders. Again, they both just feel too real to me to be Sues. I mean, Mary sue generally feel a little fake, right?

My Conclusion: Cornflower and Columbine are s;lightly sies, abut not really. Again, draw your own conclusions, I'm just making this thread because I strangely enjoy making lists like this (Though I only recently found out ) and because I'm getting sick and tired of debating all these Sue peoples.

Sister Armel: A very pretty squirrel, she's smart, the Infirmary Sister at Redwall, and very kind and sweet. Plus, she has a love interest in Rakkety Tam. (Isn't that, like, a base for all Sues? Nah, just kidding!) I don;t really see how she's a sue, but *shrugs* I guess I can see how people could view her that way.

Armel's also stubborn, and slight;y forceful. Again, she just feels far too real a character for me to think her a Mary Sue.

My conclusion: I don;t think she's a sue-type. I mean. really! She forces Tam to eat when he's worried about Doogey. Again, draw your own conclusion.

Abbess Songbreeze: Ooh, we have a biggy here folks! You all insist she's sue because she's pretty, can sing, and has all the qualities of an Abbess. Well, so what says I! I never viewed her as a Sue either.

Here's why: For heaven's sake, she hurls herself off a cliff for a bird she's never met! Don't you think tat's a little, I dunno, THOUGHTLESS and STUPID?! I mean, I wouldn;t like to watch a bird die either, but I don;t think I'd hurl myself off a waterfall either! There surely would have been a smarter way. She';s far too young to be an Abbes sin my opinion, and she is also a bit of a prankster - Like her ending speech at the end of Marlfox. anyone remember that?

My conclusion: Mary sue-ish? NEVER! She's too real, too hasty to act, too thoughtless. . . . Again, draw your own conclusion.

Holy crud, I actually typed all that?! And I'm waaaay past the time I should have gotten off my laptop. Well, I hope you enjoyed that, I'm sorry for any typos, and PLEASE, post your thoughts! Yes? (And yes, I realize that a character feeling 'too real' to me isn't really a valid reason for them not to be a sue. Shut up., Again, my previous point of: Don;t Mary Sues seem fake to you? No? the characters I described as feeling too real for me to believe Mary Sues just seem too fleshed out, too thought out to be Mary Sues.)

[Jukka the Sling]

I think Songbreeze is a bit Sueish (*waits for Dan to descend upon thread with a vengeance*), and same for Tiria.  Songbreeze can sing wonderfully (and sings way too much during the book), is pretty, rarely (if ever) gets angry, and is willing to throw herself off a waterfall for a random bird she just met.

Tiria is excellent with a sling, is always polite and brave, and carries herself well in social situations (not that it ever made a point of saying this, but I noticed.  I actually found it somewhat inspirational, for lack of a better word.  I sometimes get nervous in certain social situations.).  But it was never explicitly stated that she and Leatho were in a relationship (although I do sorta float that ship in fanfiction).  And it's actually her and Song's youth that's another Sueish quality.  Read this article.

Mariel is definitely not a Sue.  Her personality is rather negative.

To all the other points you raised, because I don't have time to reply to them all:  Basically, a Mary Sue is a character with nothing but positive qualities and no real flaws.  So if they're quick to react and all that, that could be a Mary Sue trait.

[James Gryphon]

Firstly, it's worth noting that making questionable decisions isn't a non-Mary-Sue trait if those decisions never actually turn out to their disadvantage. Mary Sues are well-known for their "informed flaws".

This article from the definitive Mary Sue site talks about what makes a Sue, just for reference.

I've railed on this topic before, so I won't hit it in-depth again, but I've always felt that Tiria is about as Sue-ish as it gets. This is what I remember about her story arc: she starts out as a basically perfect otter (with a prophecy about her), is immediately endowed with a powerful military escort, strolls around from place to place picking up allies, and then kills the main villain as soon as she lays eyes on him, with a one-in-a-million shot.

I've also mentioned this before: I've felt that Rose is just a millimeter under the Sue line, solely because she is not a good fighter. Mariel is just the opposite -- while she is loaded with informed personality flaws, she has more pure fighting talent than just about any other character in any Redwall book. She almost beats a famous swordfighter without ever having fought or used a sword before, and, wielding a rope, is able to make the bearer of the Sword of Martin look superfluous.

As far as Lycian or any abbess goes... I think the reason why nobody mentions them is because 1) they're expected to be wise and have perfect personalities, and 2) they don't normally do anything particularly cool or important. Song is an obvious exception here, of course, having gone on a quest before she became an Abbess.

Neither Columbine or Cornflower are Sues; they're sweet and smart, but not loaded with any particular amazing talent or cool trait.

[Skyblade]

Now, if she was not only gorgeous and a good singer, but, say, also as talented with the sword as Martin, then we would have a problem.

I found this quote from another thread and think it helps describes what a Sue is. A Mary Sue is, well, perfect or near perfect. Just unrealistically amazing, often has a painful backstory, and gets away with everything she does (I think; correct me if I'm mistaken. I know there's more to Sues than this, though).

I find this topic interesting. I even take Mary Sue tests for the characters in my book series to help keep them on the right track (it's tough, though!). Here's a link to a helpful test, which helps give one an idea of what makes a Sue (and also what doesn't'): http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm There are others on the Internet to be found with a simple Google search.

Anyway, I want to add that we could talk about Gary-stus as well. If there are perfect female characters in the books, it wouldn't be surprising to find perfect male counterparts as well.

Oh, and these made me laugh

Here's why: For heaven's sake, she hurls herself off a cliff for a bird she's never met! Don't you think tat's a little, I dunno, THOUGHTLESS and STUPID?!

Songbreeze can sing wonderfully (and sings way too much during the book), is pretty, rarely (if ever) gets angry, and is willing to throw herself off a waterfall for a random bird she just met.

[JangoCoolguy]

...

Where's Triss

She's the Queen of Mary Sues in this series!

[Jetthebinturong]

Very true.

[Cornflower MM]

...

Where's Triss

She's the Queen of Mary Sues in this series!

I'm sorry. I was listing the 'Mary Sues' that have been debated off the top of my head - And I was running out of time! Maybe I'll make another topic soon for those that I missed.

[JangoCoolguy]

Ya know what? Never mind. There's really not much to debate when it comes to her. (I'd delete the previous post if I was able).

[Skyblade]

I don't think Cornflower or Columbine were Sues. I just can't see that. They didn't have anything especially WOW about them that made them unrealistic. Does having lovers automatically make them so Sue-ish?

I think Rose may be borderline Sue, though, because she does have some random and helpful skills (eagle calling, singing).

Interesting that you brought up Cregga.

[Jukka the Sling]

Despite what anyone may say, Cregga isn't a Sue.  Sure, she's incredibly strong, but aren't all Badger Lords?  Her Bloodwrath is also a problem for her, and she has a temper.  Totally not a Sue.

[MeadowR]

Interesting thoughts there, Cornflower! I would rather see more flaws in characters; it's just too much when they are all marvellous in what they do!

Of characters I particularly remember about at this stage, I'd say Tiria seemed a little too close to Mary-Sue-ness to me. Mariel I'm not so sure about; very headstrong in her namesake book, pretty flawed, and then in Bellmaker she wasn't written enough about to give a real air of Mary-Sue, I feel. I can see however once the moodiness goes, she's pretty capable a character in what she does almost to the point she is in fact not quite interesting enough a character really.

[Dannflower Reguba]

I think Songbreeze is a bit Sueish (*waits for Dan to descend upon thread with a vengeance*)

       Your confidence in my self-control is.... inspiring.  But yes, I heavily disagree with you. Okay, she sings and is pretty, what else is new? That describes a large number of primary females in the series. On the flip side, she's no fighter, she's a back liner. Sadly, they only had her in one book (she does get referenced in... Taggerung? But nothing particularly interesting goes with that), so the debate here is mostly opinion and definition (as seen in the two completely different takes on Song leaping off a cliff, I find it to be both caring and idiotic).

     Now on to Mariel..... Yeah she's a Sue. She has a bad temper and horrible personality, but she still does everything the way she wants it. She fights off COMPLETELY impossible odds with a ship's rope.... A rope that size ain't a weapon (these things are THICK), but she's superior to every other fighter in her books. She can do no wrong, and is always the single most important figure in the scene. (In short, I literally hate everything about Mariel)

       Okay, on to less temperamental things, from what I can see of Tiria, she does seem to be a full Sue. I don't remember a time when she messed up, or was lacking. She knocked around a band of vermin essentially by herself, made friends with everyone, etc. To be fair, I don't have the best memory of High Rhulain, AND it is somewhat opinion based. That having been said, she makes for quite the Sue from everything I've got right now.     

       Those are the only 3 I care about, as for Triss, I don't think we hear enough about her to make a call, but her use of the sword so quickly is certainly a starting ground for calling her a Sue, but outside of that, there's really nothing.

       The only one that REALLY gets on my nerves enough to show is Mariel. Even her name grates on my ears. Now if people try to shove their opinion down my throat, then I'll get upset and just might have to show them why they're wrong with a tad more force than necessary. (sarcasm, hint hint  ) Opinion based threads, yummy. 

[Starla1431]

I would kinda call Marial a Sue. Some of the things she got away with was annoying. I would definitely call Taria a Mary Sue though or atleast close to one. 

[Skyblade]

I like when characters have flaws. Of course, that doesn't mean I like characters who are bloodthirsty killers or bent on being cold, but I like well-meaning characters who make honest mistakes (sometimes very stupid ones. Hey, humans will be humans). They are more relatable and likeable that way.

I think the reason people dislike Mary-Sues is that they're just so unrealistic. Unlikely (or impossible) to occur in real life. They're definitely not relatable, because which human is perfect? I personally like relatable characters; I empathize with them.

I honestly don't see Triss as a Sue, but perhaps she is. Tiria is a somewhat unbelievable character to me.

[Jetthebinturong]

We always think about the Mary Sues but what about the Gary Stus? Can you think of a single character flaw in any of the main male protagonists?