Mary-Sues

[Groddil]

The Mary-Sue tester has options for those last three points. They're all considered Sue-ish.

[Ashleg]

I just finished reading Taggerung a few days ago, and I didn't think Denya was a sue...Just a nice guy that was raised in the wrong place. And because he was chosen as the "Taggerung", he has to be naturally stronger than the other creatures, just because that is how a Taggerung is.
Judging by the book, there were vermin like that, and vermin are usually portrayed as weak--at least, they turn out to be.

Or maybe I'm just too defensive of Denya. 

[rachel25]

I don't like the idea that all vermin are bad and all woodlanders are good. (just read my RP and you'll see that.  )  But in Taggerung you have Nimbalo who's father was a woodlander and not a nice guy and yes Nimbalo was a pathological lair but he was still a good guy despite being raised by an abusive father. Denya was raised in a tribe of vermin but still believed in right and wrong. Some people are just nice people no matter what they go through or who their raised by. Having just read his wiki page I think I can rightfully say that just because he was a excellent fighter and tracker it doesn't make him a sue. He was trained all his life and he was the Taggerung anyway.
(I don't even know if this post makes sense.  )

[Skyblade]

What about Deyna unfeasibly surviving a wound? (I haven't read the book, so I don't have full details. But I've heard)

The Mary-Sue tester has options for those last three points. They're all considered Sue-ish.

Ah, thanks

[rachel25]

It could be argued that he'd gone into a bloodwrath rage thing and badgers survived wounds because of that. And he actually only survived because the Skipper took him to The otter fixer. An old female otter who was an expert Healer and a bit of a hermit.

[Skyblade]

Ah, thanks for the info.

Regarding Martin: A Sue is not a character that can't be defeated; a Sue is usually a character with no negative qualities. Can anyone think of negative qualities that Martin has? Because I can't.

Good point. And I can't think of any, either.

[Jetthebinturong]

It's the same thing with Deyna; he has no negative qualities, despite being raised by a tribe of bloodthirsty warriors.

[rachel25]

Martin lied to Gonff about his past.

(I rather feel like the characters lawyer in all this.  )

[Skyblade]

And I feel like a Devil's advocate

[rachel25]

 
I'm frantically looking back through the wikis as I haven't read the books in years now.

[Jetthebinturong]

Martin lied to Gonff about his past.

(I rather feel like the characters lawyer in all this.  )

Since Martin the Warrior was written after Mossflower, he didn't have a backstory at this time.

BUT if we are to use this as an argument, my answer is this: So what? Sometimes you don't want to tell people things, and Gonff doesn't seem like the type to take "no" for an answer when he's interested in something, therefore giving him a simplified version of the truth is entirely justified, and thus not immoral, and thus not a negative quality.

[Wylder Treejumper]

The question is, then: Was it even possible for Martin not to be a sue? He is, after all, the driving force behind much of the series.

[Jetthebinturong]

Yes it was very possible. Have the abbey-dwellers hero-worship him and think him infallible, then when you actually write about him, make him into an actual person with flaws.

[Skyblade]

I've checked out James' chart, and I don't think Felldoh is a Sue. Yes, he was a good fighter, but what else was he good at? Not to mention that he had a clear weakness: rage. The anger he felt towards Marshank, even if it was somewhat understandable, led to a hasty duel with Badrang. He did kill 20 or 30 (forgot exact number) vermin single-handedly, but that may be possible with Bloodwrath. I find it unlikely that a character whose greatest weakness led to his demise is a Sue.

Martin lied to Gonff about his past.

He wasn't outright lying; he just didn't tell the entire story. And that was to keep Noonvale and his friends secret. Not sure if the moral code was broken, but either way, his action was well-intentioned... and that weakens the "Martin did something wrong" incident.

Yes it was very possible. Have the abbey-dwellers hero-worship him and think him infallible, then when you actually write about him, make him into an actual person with flaws.

Well said. That would have been nice to see.

[James Gryphon]

I'll get into the explanation and defense of the chart and the ratings I chose, and other Sue-related commentary, later... right now I'm on a phone.

I did want to say, though , that Martin's past was more than just omissions of fact. In one part he fondly recalls for Gonff an anecdote about fighting off vermin while his father lay injured in a cave giving instructions. The Martin we read about from the other two books was clearly too young at the time his father was there for that to have ever happened.