Mary-Sues

[alexandre]

I'm really not one to complain about a character being a Mary Sue if its a Redwall character. I prefer Redwall books and movies with "squeaky clean" characters and good morals to a lot of other trashy books with annoying, cliched "dark" characters who try to seem flawed. Of course, when the writer knows how to create a balance between good characteristics and flaws that are actually interesting and meaningful, that's cool, too.
I tend to think more in terms of whether I liked the character or not. The Taggerung was the second Redwall book I read as a kid, so the fact that Deyna was an otter amongst vermin wasn't a big deal to me the way it was when I read Outcast many books later.

I would just like to say this, why the heck do people always talk about Veil and Deyna with the Vermin to Woodlander relationships and characteristics? It is like everyone has forgotten about the great Blaggut. Blaggut is my favorite character out of any book ever.

[Wylder Treejumper]

Blaggut is pretty amazing. Not remotely a sue, though...

[Ashleg]

Not a Sue, but he was awesome.
He reminds me of some Disney character whom I can't recall the name...

[alexandre]

Blaggut is pretty amazing. Not remotely a sue, though...

I know, But I saw Belle's quote as an opportunity to make my point, even though it is a bit off topic

[belle]

@Wylder Treejumper @Ashleg @alexandre Blaggut was the best part about the Bellmaker!!!

[The Skarzs]

@Wylder: Very well said.

Looking back, I must agree as well that a lot of characters are Mary Sues from a writer's stand point, but in a way, the stories they are put into [sometimes] make it acceptable.
And really, did we not still enjoy most of the books despite the Sues?

[Ashleg]

In all honesty, the only reason I finished reading Triss was because I want to one day be able to say I read the entire Redwall series.
She was pretty much the Sue of Sues, and the other characters weren't much better.

[alexandre]

@Wylder Treejumper @Ashleg @alexandre Blaggut was the best part about the Bellmaker!!!

The Best Part of Redwall too, second only to Gonff The Prince of Mousthieves.

[Wylder Treejumper]

*Raises eyebrow*

A bit much, doncha think? There's a lot of good things about the Redwall series, and I wouldn't call any one character "the best thing about it."

[alexandre]

*Raises eyebrow*

A bit much, doncha think? There's a lot of good things about the Redwall series, and I wouldn't call any one character "the best thing about it."

Well... I would.

[The Skarzs]

What would be the best thing about the series? Sounds like a topic unto its own. . .

[Tiria Wildlough]

Super interesting topic! The Sues in Redwall used to bug me a lot, but I've come to realize that Redwall isn't the kind of fiction where the characters need to be complex and flawed. I see them as sort of like, legends or something like that, where the characters are larger than life and don't need to be realistic. As someone (I forgot who) said, it's escapist fantasy, and there's nothing wrong with that. The idea of Sues shouldn't apply in stories like that.

[Ashleg]

Sues are okay when they have reason.
Martin, for example, is supposed to be Redwall's guardian angel and the great liberator from the past; okay, I get that.
Matthias is Martin, so if he's perfect it makes sense, but what irks me is when a character comes out of nowhere and is unexplainably (and without reason) "perfect".

You can have escapist fantasy and legends where the characters aren't so flawless that they annoy the majority of readers.

[clunylooney]

The trouble with Deyna is that we already had a counterpart for how a character raised by the opposite side "should" be in Veil. Veil trended good with a dark streak up until he grew up, when he finally crossed over and became evil with a bright streak. Denya is good from the beginning, without ever experiencing any serious moral doubts or any transition from one side to another. Many of the good guys in the series have less qualms with hurting or 'mistreating' enemies than him. I think if you took Grath Longfletch's personality and plopped it into Deyna, that would probably be closer to what people would expect than what we got.

Anyway, on a more general note, here's a spreadsheet I made up ranking Sue-ishness, covering most of the books I remember reading. I don't bother ranking villains. If there's a major secondary protagonist, they might be in there too. Suggestions for characters to put on the list are more than welcome.

I only consider a character "definitely a Sue" if they are Sue-y in both categories. Mariel, with her unmatched combat talent and informed character flaws, meets this. Tiria is appropriately the Queen of Sues by this standard. Meanwhile, characters like Redwall Matthias (who is a world-class fighter by the end of Redwall, but otherwise relatively ordinary), or Rose (who is beautiful, has an exquisite singing voice, and can make perfect imitations of bird noises, but is a terrible fighter) fall short. These characters might be Sues by other series' definitions, but to be a true Redwall Sue, you have to have a perfect storm of Sueness going; after all, incredible beauty, great singing, or brilliant swordsmanship in and of themselves aren't that hard to come by here.

Some of these characters are also ranked lower because I consider the villains they faced against to have been unusually weak. Triss isn't considered a fighting Sue simply because Kurda was awful, and beating her isn't much of an accomplishment. Rakkety Tam gets away with effortlessly eluding and sneaking through Gulo's horde because they're especially inept.

Why are your posts always so long?

[Scott McLamok]

Teer is a Mary Sue......