Poll
Question:
Do you think Rose was a Sue?
Option 1: Yes
votes: 8
Option 2: No
votes: 31
Option 3: Sort of
votes: 19
So...the question. ;D Personally, I think yes. No one disliked her or showed any signs of doing so. (not counting the vermin.) Also, she was a great singer, and gorgeously beautiful. I wasn't sad when she died. *shrugs*
Well, while those things are normally conducive to Sue-dom, the fact is that those positive traits aren't as hard to come by in the Redwall series as they are elsewhere, and she isn't superb or even above average at the most important skill-set in the series -- fighting.
Think about it -- are there any female protagonists who aren't good singers, or who aren't at least somewhat attractive? I'm going to take a guess and say that there aren't many, and that means that while Rose might be the best at those skills, they're still skills that are possessed by most female protagonists -- she doesn't have a monopoly on that.
As the romantic interest for Martin, it isn't unreasonable for her to have a lot of natural charisma, but she doesn't have too many skills outside of that, and I think that balances her out -- just like it does Cornflower in Redwall, and Tess Churchmouse in Mattimeo.
Now, if she was not only gorgeous and a good singer, but, say, also as talented with the sword as Martin, then we would have a problem. I think there are characters that fit this mold, as I've mentioned before, like Melanda MacBurl and, well, unfortunately, your namesake. Mariel also gets dangerously close to this in some ways, since she has more pure combat talent than almost every other protagonist in the series, but that's somewhat balanced out by her negative personality traits.
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on October 25, 2011, 01:14:56 PM
So...the question. ;D Personally, I think yes. No one disliked her or showed any signs of doing so. (not counting the vermin.) Also, she was a great singer, and gorgeously beautiful. I wasn't sad when she died. *shrugs*
how did she die again ??? ??? ???
Quote from: Taggerung The Otter on November 14, 2011, 03:58:40 PM
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on October 25, 2011, 01:14:56 PM
So...the question. ;D Personally, I think yes. No one disliked her or showed any signs of doing so. (not counting the vermin.) Also, she was a great singer, and gorgeously beautiful. I wasn't sad when she died. *shrugs*
how did she die again ??? ??? ???
In the book, Badrang threw her into a wall, which caused A) a severe concussion B) a broken neck or C) a severed spinal cord.
In the cartoon, Badrang ran her through with Martin's sword.
Interesting perspectives from all of you. I don't recall Rose in either the book or the tv series having any particular flaw to the point that she cannot be considered perfect or a "sue". Her brother, Brome definitely had character flaws and was brash and disobedient (how he ended up in Marshank) but Rose, and even to a point, some of Noonvale it seems they can do no wrong.
I'm gonna say Rose was a little like a Mary Sue just in that she seemed a little unbelievable (primarily with her convenient eagle screeches and singing ability), which is apparently enough for me to vote for the Sue option. Guess I didn't want the heroes to escape so easily. ...and I didn't see the "sort of" option, darn. Dotti from "Lord Brocktree" also seemed Sue-ish in that she could speak perfect molespeech for no reason, but this topic's about Rose.
Quote from: Folgrimeo on November 19, 2011, 06:14:41 PM
Dotti from "Lord Brocktree" also seemed Sue-ish in that she could speak perfect molespeech for no reason, but this topic's about Rose.
That was about Dotti's only convenient quality. But it was kinda a pointless skill, since the moles liked her anyways. You can see what I said about Dotti in the Least Favorite Hero topic.
I know this may be kind of stupid of me, but what IS a Sue?
Quote from: Firewall978 on November 21, 2011, 02:51:17 AM
I know this may be kind of stupid of me, but what IS a Sue?
I think this link should help you ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
Hey, notice that Dotti said that she was taught molespeech by Blunn from when she was a harebabe. I'm sure I'd speak fluent Russian if I was taught it from infancy, even though I'm 100% American in New York.
I don't really think of her as a sue... I'm not us why though. Just she did have flaws to her like ooh I don't know, getting brutaly killed by Badrang?
QuoteJust she did have flaws to her like ooh I don't know, getting brutaly killed by Badrang?
Getting killed isn't a flaw....its unfortunate. ;) If Rose had a flaw, Mr. Jacques never led onto what it was.
QuoteMary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling....She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.
~from Wikipedia article on Mary Sues. ;)
She had her flaws, they just weren't major. For example, you see a tad bit of headstrong-ness when she went against her father's wishes to go back with Martin. You can even see it a little when she went to search for her brother who had gotten in an argument with their father before running away. Also, as others have said, she wasn't really a warrior. She could handle a sling ok, but she wasn't really strong or skilled when it came to fighting.
I noticed that all of Brian's Characters had at least one flaw or more, not one of his good characters are perfect, (taggerung may be an exception, but he did have a few, one for being too soft on evil). that is what makes a good book, the good guys are not perfect, they still make mistakes.
About Rose, she also got into an argument about the Merdop with Martin because she got mad.
I don't even know.
I honestly think she was a Mary-Sue. I mean, she has one or two little flaws, but she seems(at least to me) to have been designed as Martin's perfect love interest, and that almost instantly creates a Sue.
True, true.
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on April 06, 2012, 11:39:56 AM
I honestly think she was a Mary-Sue. I mean, she has one or two little flaws, but she seems(at least to me) to have been designed as Martin's perfect love interest, and that almost instantly creates a Sue.
I once wondered what it would be like if MTW was a fanfiction instead of being canon. Needless to say, if this WAS the case, then Rose would have certainly been a Sue.
Quote from: KaiTheDog on April 13, 2012, 02:45:33 AM
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on April 06, 2012, 11:39:56 AM
I honestly think she was a Mary-Sue. I mean, she has one or two little flaws, but she seems(at least to me) to have been designed as Martin's perfect love interest, and that almost instantly creates a Sue.
I once wondered what it would be like if MTW was a fanfiction instead of being canon. Needless to say, if this WAS the case, then Rose would have certainly been a Sue.
Mary-Sues can be in books too, so it wouldn't even necessarily need to be a fan fiction.
Rose and Martin are also some of my favorite characters
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on April 22, 2012, 02:57:11 PM
Quote from: KaiTheDog on April 13, 2012, 02:45:33 AM
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on April 06, 2012, 11:39:56 AM
I honestly think she was a Mary-Sue. I mean, she has one or two little flaws, but she seems(at least to me) to have been designed as Martin's perfect love interest, and that almost instantly creates a Sue.
I once wondered what it would be like if MTW was a fanfiction instead of being canon. Needless to say, if this WAS the case, then Rose would have certainly been a Sue.
Mary-Sues can be in books too, so it wouldn't even necessarily need to be a fan fiction.
That's not what I was implying. Rose had sue-like qualities that, had MTW been a fanfiction, would have been pointed out and bashed more by the readers than having a good part of the fandom adore her. Don't get me wrong when I say that, as I've continuously rolled my eyes at pretty much everything to do with Rose's vocal talents. Screeching like an eagle and not having a sore, rough voice afterwards doesn't make much sense to me. And don't get me started about the bee incident. I'm also quite sure some people have done the same thing, if not for her voice but for other things, such as her looks.
Quote from: KaiTheDog on April 22, 2012, 09:21:29 PM
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on April 22, 2012, 02:57:11 PM
Quote from: KaiTheDog on April 13, 2012, 02:45:33 AM
Quote from: WildDoogyPlumm on April 06, 2012, 11:39:56 AM
I honestly think she was a Mary-Sue. I mean, she has one or two little flaws, but she seems(at least to me) to have been designed as Martin's perfect love interest, and that almost instantly creates a Sue.
I once wondered what it would be like if MTW was a fanfiction instead of being canon. Needless to say, if this WAS the case, then Rose would have certainly been a Sue.
Mary-Sues can be in books too, so it wouldn't even necessarily need to be a fan fiction.
That's not what I was implying. Rose had sue-like qualities that, had MTW been a fanfiction, would have been pointed out and bashed more by the readers than having a good part of the fandom adore her. Don't get me wrong when I say that, as I've continuously rolled my eyes at pretty much everything to do with Rose's vocal talents. Screeching like an eagle and not having a sore, rough voice afterwards doesn't make much sense to me. And don't get me started about the bee incident. I'm also quite sure some people have done the same thing, if not for her voice but for other things, such as her looks.
Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Rose really annoyed me, and with the bee incident I was like, "Wait, WHAT? Did that really just work?!" ???
Okay, yeah that part WAS pretty stupid... But still, why does everyone hate Rose!
I don't hate I like her
What exactly dos "sue" mean? I've never heard that word before (Except in abbreviation's of certain names).
When used in this context, it's a slang term for someone (usually a woman, of course) who seems perfect, someone who can do no wrong.
Having matured and studied the subject since I last posted here, this is what I have to say...NO!!!! ROSE WAS NOT A MARY SUE!!!! NOT IN THE LEAST!!!!! AHHH, WHY DOES EVERYBODY THINK SHE'S A SUE!!!!! AHHHGGG!!!! *Awkard cough* Eh, sorry about that, I just had to let it all out. I don't think that Rose was a sue at all.
I don't think she was but I think she was at the same time. It's kind of hard to ay.
Quote from: Tam and Martin on November 08, 2013, 02:36:11 PM
I don't think she was but I think she was at the same time. It's kind of hard to ay.
Well, she wasn't like perfect at everything...
I don't think Mary Sues typically die
She's definitely NOT a Mary Sue!
She might have some qualities, but she still has her faults.
Quote from: Redwaller on November 08, 2013, 11:44:57 PM
She's definitely NOT a Mary Sue!
She might have some qualities, but she still has her faults.
I know! There are plenty of other female characters that have just as many qualities as Rose does, but Rose is called a Sue probably because of her association with Martin.
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on November 08, 2013, 11:54:50 PM
Quote from: Redwaller on November 08, 2013, 11:44:57 PM
She's definitely NOT a Mary Sue!
She might have some qualities, but she still has her faults.
I know! There are plenty of other female characters that have just as many qualities as Rose does, but Rose is called a Sue probably because of her association with Martin.
That is why I say she is not a Sue.
Quote from: Tam and Martin on November 09, 2013, 12:00:46 AM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on November 08, 2013, 11:54:50 PM
Quote from: Redwaller on November 08, 2013, 11:44:57 PM
She's definitely NOT a Mary Sue!
She might have some qualities, but she still has her faults.
I know! There are plenty of other female characters that have just as many qualities as Rose does, but Rose is called a Sue probably because of her association with Martin.
That is why I say she is not a Sue.
Exactly!
Why does it say my vote was yes!? There's no definition that could possibly include Rose in this type of character! :o
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on December 25, 2011, 02:20:42 PM
QuoteMary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling....She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.
~from Wikipedia article on Mary Sues. ;)
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on November 08, 2013, 10:23:34 PM
Quote from: Romsca on November 08, 2013, 09:47:10 PM
I don't think Mary Sues typically die
Good point...
Warribout this? ;)
Quote from: The Shade on November 12, 2013, 07:50:34 PM
Quote from: Tiria Wildlough on December 25, 2011, 02:20:42 PM
QuoteMary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling....She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.
~from Wikipedia article on Mary Sues. ;)
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on November 08, 2013, 10:23:34 PM
Quote from: Romsca on November 08, 2013, 09:47:10 PM
I don't think Mary Sues typically die
Good point...
Warribout this? ;)
Since when are Wiki's the end all? ::) seriously, a real Mary Sue by a natural definition (not one specifically crafted just so Rose could be counted :P) wouldn't, "die."
Probably not, I was just bringing up the quote. ;D
Quote from: The Shade on November 14, 2013, 10:16:47 AM
Probably not, I was just bringing up the quote. ;D
Alright. ;)
Nope. Tiria was a Sue. Martha was a Sue. Mariel was a Sue. Lonna was a Sue. Triss was a complete and total Sue (she was such a Sue it hurts).
Laterose? Hardly sue-ish in my eyes.
Quote from: JangoCoolguy on November 26, 2013, 12:29:09 AM
Nope. Tiria was a Sue. Martha was a Sue. Deyna was a Sue. Martin II was a Sue. Triss was a complete and total Sue (she was such a Sue it hurts).
Laterose? Hardly sue-ish in my eyes.
Well, I'm not sure if Martin II was a sue, but I agree completely with everyone else on that list, ecspesually Triss.
ESPECIALLY Triss :o
I really like that hare, idk what book... Brocktree, I think. The one who got kicked out of Sala. Maudie, I think. She acted like she was a Sue, but wasn't very Sue-ish :P
Quote from: Romsca on November 26, 2013, 03:56:14 AM
ESPECIALLY Triss :o
Oh, yes. She's even got a book named after her...
Quote from: rusvulthesaber on November 26, 2013, 04:09:34 AM
I really like that hare, idk what book... Brocktree, I think. The one who got kicked out of Sala. Maudie, I think. She acted like she was a Sue, but wasn't very Sue-ish :P
Maudie was in
Eulalia but there was a Dorothea who was a hare in
Lord Brocktree.
I'm going to have to disagree on Martin the second, he never did anything. ::) All Martha did was overcome the sickness, not quite a sue really, just a bit un-realistic. I agree with Maudie and Lonna, and definitive stinking Tiria. I couldn't stand High Rhulain simply because Tiria WAS the book, Brian had lotsa of pretty cool characters but they were all shoved out of the way for a rather un-interesting replacement. Triss didn't really do much, but its been awhile, so I'll keep to myself on this one, might have forgotten something. Goona have to disagree on Deyna as well, he lost too much to be a Sue, he nearly died from a single arrow wound. If anything, Valug is the sue. (hitting a dragon fly's wing? get real)
Here's the biggest one in the series... And I really hate her.
Mariel
If you deny her sue-ness..... Then I have no words for you. She overpowers everyone she meets, fights of a multitude of birds with a rope when she's near death, manages to actually cause issues for a badger giving her a bath (you'd never even see an otter getting away with that) she beats an incredibly experienced squirrel (who later helps beat a bunch of vermin to kingdom come) singlehandedly takes on a giant bird, rescues her friends around every corner, puts a horde of Urgan's followers at bay until meeting the otter and badger. Basically she's a tiria multiplied by a Martha= Invincible physical prowess and extreme immunity to nasty physical disadvantages.
...
I'm really passionate about some of these, sorry if it comes across rudely. :-\
^Agree with most of what you said. But, I don't remember Valug killing a fly. Though it's been awhile since I read Taggerung. Even still I don't think that makes him a sue.
Also, the characters you mentioned all kind of seem like sues. With Taria and Mariel being the biggest.
Quote from: danflorreguba on November 26, 2013, 11:37:42 PM
Goona have to disagree on Deyna as well, he lost too much to be a Sue, he nearly died from a single arrow wound. If anything, Valug is the sue. (hitting a dragon fly's wing? get real)
Are you sure it wasn't a figure of speech? BTW, it's Vallug Bowbeast, with two "l". :D
I figured it had two l's, but I give no cares this day. :P ;D
Vallug was described as being able to shoot a dragon fly's wingtip, or one of those other thingies. And I didn't say that he was a sue, just much closer to being one than Deyna. ;)
Quote from: danflorreguba on January 02, 1970, 03:29:12 PM
Vallug was described as being able to shoot a dragon fly's wingtip, or one of those other thingies. And I didn't say that he was a sue, just much closer to being one than Deyna. ;)
That would make Vallug, like, the only vermin who was a sue. But he really wasn't a sue in my book.
Gosh darnit, I just got done saying that he wasn't necessarily a sue so much as being much closer to one than Deyna was! ::) :D
Now I'm trying to come up with sue-ish vermin, Gulo was over-powered, but that kind of comes with the species.... Hmmm... I'll have to think more on this one, but it stands to reason that they wouldn't be. Jaques was an honorable man, he wouldn't want to provide a "good" bad guy for kids to disjointedly look up too. He wanted to leave a positive influence, or at least that's what I've gathered from my experience.
Quote from: danflorreguba on November 27, 2013, 04:38:22 AM
Gosh darnit, I just got done saying that he wasn't necessarily a sue so much as being much closer to one than Deyna was! ::) :D
I know, I was just giving an opinion. ;)
Quote from: danflorreguba on November 26, 2013, 11:37:42 PM
Here's the biggest one in the series... And I really hate her.
Mariel
If you deny her sue-ness..... Then I have no words for you. She overpowers everyone she meets, fights of a multitude of birds with a rope when she's near death, manages to actually cause issues for a badger giving her a bath (you'd never even see an otter getting away with that) she beats an incredibly experienced squirrel (who later helps beat a bunch of vermin to kingdom come) singlehandedly takes on a giant bird, rescues her friends around every corner, puts a horde of Urgan's followers at bay until meeting the otter and badger. Basically she's a tiria multiplied by a Martha= Invincible physical prowess and extreme immunity to nasty physical disadvantages.
IKR?? I HATE her too, and it makes me SO MAD that ALL the OTHER females who read Redwall love her (including my mom). It seems to me that Brian Jacques was just trying to get more interest from his female fans. Personally, Mariel absolutely disgusts me. I have no desire to reread that book. Triss was a bit more bearable, and I felt I could... sort of at least... relate to Tiria. I prefer more BA characters like Romsca, though 8)
Redwall isn't the real world, so it's bound to have differences. Just my opinion...
Quote from: Redwaller on December 31, 2013, 01:30:21 PM
Redwall isn't the real world, so it's bound to have differences. Just my opinion...
Yeah. Though I know some other fiction books that don't have perfect Mary/Gary Sues.
Wow, we've gotten allot of opinions on the subject...
What ho, everybody agreeing on something! Well let me just throw a stick into the wheel here... >:D
I don't hate sues. When I was a kid, Martin and Mariel were my absolute favorite characters ever; I looked up to Mariel as a sort of role model. Been a while since I read the book, but I've got plenty to say on the topic of sues and such.
On the definition of sues: I believe a sue is a character that is perfect as a result of poor character development on the author's part. Perfect characters that are well rounded -- that's not an oxymoron, I've met people like that and it seems perfectly fine to me if a few fictional characters possess the trait, too -- are not a Bad Thing. Although I guess they're technically still sues.
There's a time and a place for this sort of character, and I think Redwall qualifies; it's directed at children. It is deliberately simplified in all aspects for this reason. So it follows that the character archetypes would be simplified as well, though Jacques kind of got away from that with the later books. Mariel represented having the strength to pick oneself up and move forward, to become something stronger and faster and smarter than something she had no chance of defeating. I recall thinking, "I want to be like that; if Mariel could do it, so can I." It seems to me that was the natural response expected from young readers. She might have been "too perfect," but she was a well-developed character.
Rose, on the other hand, was not given enough of the spotlight to really develop into the sort of flawed, rounded characters people expect or assume her to be. Whether or not that makes her a sue is irrelevant; she shouldn't be weighed on the same scale as the "complete" characters. (But if I had to say one way or the other, I'd say she counts as a sue.)
Tiria is a little harder for me to gauge. I didn't think she was perfect or overpowering, particularly, but things did seem a little too convenient as far as her adventure went. Whatever the case, she wasn't half as perfect as the Long Patrol hares. *swoon*
All my own personal opinions, of course! Hey, on the subject of sues, why aren't we talking about the boys, too? Gonff, Brocktree, and Tam, for example...
I'm not a Sue!
Jk.
Aw, I was just going to post something like that, Osu! ;)
So many people say Rose isn't a Sue because they like her, but she really is. They may argue that she died, so she isn't a Sue, but she has hardly any character development so her death is more of a explanation for why Martin didn't love again or have any descendants.
But Rose wasn't a Sue! She didn't really ever have the spotlight all to herself, and her only two"talent" wasbeing able to make eagle calls and sing. Mariel was a Sue because ahe acted like one. Rose didn't.
Quote from: PluggFiretail on January 12, 2014, 08:40:00 PM
Aw, I was just going to post something like that, Osu! ;)
So many people say Rose isn't a Sue because they like her, but she really is. They may argue that she died, so she isn't a Sue, but she has hardly any character development so her death is more of a explanation for why Martin didn't love again or have any descendants.
That was quit rude.
Rose is not a Sue because she is not perfect, the very fact that she wasn't completely developed pulls her out of the runnings, we don't know much about her, and even what we do know still doesn't qualify as a Sue.
As far as Gonff goes, I never payed much attention to him, didn't like him all that much. Brocktree's a badger, nuff said :P. Tam was a highly experienced fighter with the guidance of Martin and his sword, even with all that he still came pretty close to losing to Gulo. Tam is by no means a Sue.
Quote from: danflorreguba on January 16, 2014, 06:11:28 AM
Quote from: PluggFiretail on January 12, 2014, 08:40:00 PM
Aw, I was just going to post something like that, Osu! ;)
So many people say Rose isn't a Sue because they like her, but she really is. They may argue that she died, so she isn't a Sue, but she has hardly any character development so her death is more of a explanation for why Martin didn't love again or have any descendants.
That was quit rude.
Rose is not a Sue because she is not perfect, the very fact that she wasn't completely developed pulls her out of the runnings, we don't know much about her, and even what we do know still doesn't qualify as a Sue.
As far as Gonff goes, I never payed much attention to him, didn't like him all that much. Brocktree's a badger, nuff said :P. Tam was a highly experienced fighter with the guidance of Martin and his sword, even with all that he still came pretty close to losing to Gulo. Tam is by no means a Sue.
AGREED!
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on January 14, 2014, 04:49:41 PM
But Rose wasn't a Sue! She didn't really ever have the spotlight all to herself, and her only two"talent" wasbeing able to make eagle calls and sing. Mariel was a Sue because ahe acted like one. Rose didn't.
Not the correct definition of a Sue.
Quote from: Wikipedia"Mary Sue" is judged as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.
@danflorreguba: Can you remind me of a time where she isn't perfect? I haven't read the book in a while. :P
Quote from: PluggFiretail on January 16, 2014, 07:16:53 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on January 14, 2014, 04:49:41 PM
But Rose wasn't a Sue! She didn't really ever have the spotlight all to herself, and her only two"talent" wasbeing able to make eagle calls and sing. Mariel was a Sue because ahe acted like one. Rose didn't.
Not the correct definition of a Sue.
Quote from: Wikipedia"Mary Sue" is judged as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.
@danflorreguba: Can you remind me of a time where she isn't perfect? I haven't read the book in a while. :P
Uh, when she tried to fight Badrang? :P Seriously, assuming you bye into her "death" then she must have one of the mushiest heads in the known world. Also, she wasn't answering, rescuing, and fighting every situation that came, she helped in some scenarios and didn't in others. Let's switch over to Mariel here, she did
EVERYTHING. Dandin wasn't the sword wielder, he was the carrying case for those times when a rope wasn't enough. THAT'S perfect, and therefore unrealistic.
FYI: Wikipedia is not the go to source for anything, that's completely opinion based.
Also, that's not very nice, because I thought Rose was rather interesting, much more so than Mariel who was completely stereotypical.
Quote from: PluggFiretail on January 16, 2014, 07:16:53 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on January 14, 2014, 04:49:41 PM
But Rose wasn't a Sue! She didn't really ever have the spotlight all to herself, and her only two"talent" wasbeing able to make eagle calls and sing. Mariel was a Sue because ahe acted like one. Rose didn't.
Not the correct definition of a Sue.
If your thinking that I meant she wasn't a Sue because she didn't have the spotlight often, your mistaken. I meant that she didn't do everything that suppisidly makes a Sue a Sue.
Just to say, I've just gotten Mariel Of Redwall from my library. After I read it, I'm sure that I'll have a thing or two to say on the subject.
And dan, what you said in your previous post about Mariel, SO TRUE. Though, I'll have my opinion of her developed better after I re-read Mariel Of Redwall.
I don't have much to say for this topic, and although Rose was a bit cheesy, I wouldn't go as far to say she was a sue.
Quote from: The Shade on January 17, 2014, 10:50:37 PM
I don't have much to say for this topic, and although Rose was a bit cheesy, I wouldn't go as far to say she was a sue.
Cheesy? How was she cheesy?
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on January 17, 2014, 10:56:55 PM
Quote from: The Shade on January 17, 2014, 10:50:37 PM
I don't have much to say for this topic, and although Rose was a bit cheesy, I wouldn't go as far to say she was a sue.
Cheesy? How was she cheesy?
I'm not gonna get bogged down in a huge debate on this board 'cos I don't check here often. She was a bit cheesy though, my opinion, maybe I'll expand on that once I get a bit of time. ;)
Quote from: The Shade on January 18, 2014, 10:19:22 PM
Quote from: Ungatt Trunn on January 17, 2014, 10:56:55 PM
Quote from: The Shade on January 17, 2014, 10:50:37 PM
I don't have much to say for this topic, and although Rose was a bit cheesy, I wouldn't go as far to say she was a sue.
Cheesy? How was she cheesy?
I'm not gonna get bogged down in a huge debate on this board 'cos I don't check here often. She was a bit cheesy though, my opinion, maybe I'll expand on that once I get a bit of time. ;)
Don't worry, I don't want to have an angry debate. But I'm all up to a normal, conscious debate. ;)
Seriously, if being beautiful plus fill in skill here makes a girl a sue... I can think of several. That makes Songbreeze a sue. Even Fwirl (champion climber). And (dare I even say it?) Treerose (Errg. I hate her). But Rose is not a sue.
Rose's talents:
Singing, vocal things that are occasionally useful.
In general, a pretty and likeable person.
Throwing rocks
Dying by having her head smashed into a wall.
Seem sue-ish to you? Hmm, does it? She's mostly perfect in every situation that she's the solution to, but that's not every situation. During combat she's only adequate, not exceptional. She's not the one in the group who did all of the planning or thinking. She's perfect when the solution, but more often than not, she's not the solution.
*Revive*
Honestly, I never really thought of Rose as a Mary Sue. I think it would really depend on one's view of a Mary Sue.
I saw her as more of a plot device than a Mary Sue... but that's probably just as bad.
Assuming plot device instead of Sue (which has a much better case as well), I don't think that would make her a bad character so much as an unfortunate one. Not accusing you of claiming she was bad btw, just covering some of the important points along the way. Really sucks honestly, because there's undeniably a certain level of her just being pulled in to be the emotional jab, but even though she got shoehorned, she was fun. I really wish we could have seen more of her, I feel a lot of characters around Martin got thrown under the bus a bit (obvious exception being Gonff, who feels like he got more page time than even Cregga who was alive in three(?) different books).
I agree with the thought that Rose was there to support Martin's development and why he ends up the way he does.
But on her own as a character, not enough to go on - seemed as normal as any other beast.
Rakkety Tam on the other hand... xD
Rakkety Tam had a lot of plot armor!
I think most redwall heroes have some sue-ish traits, but I understand why and don't really mind. I can still like sues (except when they are Trisscar Swordmaid).
Even though Rakkety Tam is kinda sueish I still like him! Just look at my name!