Vermin aren't cowards! (at least most of them)

[Izeroth]

 

Good points Sage I personally think Slagar  is a coward because he ran from the abbey after killing Methuselah. That was so sad. Also, he just always seemed to be running from danger instead of facing it head on.

That was what any sane person would do in real life. And if your opponents were more skilled than you and could and would kill you, anyone in the real world would do the same.

     The vermin possess little reason to push, they don't have anything really worth living for, but the woodlanders have each other, they have friends and family, a home, things they NEED to protect...

Vermin have friends and family, they have each other, the only reason they are bad are because they are supposed to be so, and as they are perceived as evil by the rest of the world, and for the fact that woodlanders are arguably more evil than than vermin.

       They hardly ever care about their friends, you trying to pin this on the woodlanders is absolutely outrageous and unfair. The vermin stereotype was developed based off of their actions, and their actions were terrible. The woodlanders had all the right to perceive them the way the do. The vermin caused their own problems, they need to fix it themselves.

The thing about woodlanders is that they're often unnecessarily violent with vermin. Case in point: The Long Patrol Hares. In numerous books, the hares go after vermin and wipe them out, even when the vermin are so scattered and weak that they pose little threat.

[rrrrr]

That's because the vermin might ambush someone unexpectedly. That's why Frunk became mad.

[Starla1431]

While it's true that there are a lot of vermin who kill the Innocent, I think it's unfair to say that all of them do, or want to do it. Some vermin are forced. And there are times when woodlanders become too blood-thirsty.

[Starla1431]

Good points Sage I personally think Slagar  is a coward because he ran from the abbey after killing Methuselah. That was so sad. Also, he just always seemed to be running from danger instead of facing it head on.

That was what any sane person would do in real life. And if your opponents were more skilled than you and could and would kill you, anyone in the real world would do the same.

     The vermin possess little reason to push, they don't have anything really worth living for, but the woodlanders have each other, they have friends and family, a home, things they NEED to protect...

Vermin have friends and family, they have each other, the only reason they are bad are because they are supposed to be so, and as they are perceived as evil by the rest of the world, and for the fact that woodlanders are arguably more evil than than vermin.

       They hardly ever care about their friends, you trying to pin this on the woodlanders is absolutely outrageous and unfair. The vermin stereotype was developed based off of their actions, and their actions were terrible. The woodlanders had all the right to perceive them the way the do. The vermin caused their own problems, they need to fix it themselves.

There ARE vermin who do care about their friends, while it may be uncommon, it's there.

[Dannflower Reguba]

       When the vermin surrender, they stop dying. If the vermin don't surrender, they keep dying. The Long Patrol is fully inline, they show no mercy to the merciless (this is not actually true, they almost always, if not always, let the survivors go free), they bring cold, hard judgement to beasts who would disturb the peace. When you see one of the woodlanders getting brutal, it's generally personal, or a flaw, singular to that character. Woodlanders, and the Long Patrol, are NOT brutal (that would be the Rogue Crew).

       "Hardly ever," Blaggut and what's his face the stoat from Loamhedge are the two most easily identified breakers of the general rule for vermin behavior.

       I'm going to end with the wise words of Dippler the shrew, "A dead enemy, ain't an enemy no more."

[Wylder Treejumper]

Aye. As an example for hares, take their chant from Long Patrol:

O vermin if you dare, come and visit us someday,
Bring all your friends and weapons with you too.
We'll give a nice warm welcome, let nobeast living say
Cold steel was never good enough for you.

You won't find poor helpless beasts all undefended,
Like the old ones, babes and mothers that you've slain,
And you'll find that when your pleasant visit's ended,
You won't ever ever leave our shores again.

All you cowards of the land and you flotsam of the sea,
Who murder, pillage, loot when'er you please,
There's a Long Patrol a waitin', and we'll greet you cheerfully,
You'll hear us cry "Eulalia" on the breeze.

'Tis a welcome to the bullies who slay without a care
All those good and peaceful creatures who can't fight,
But perilous and dangerous the beast they call the hare,
Who stands for nought but honor and the right.

Eulalia! Eulalia! Come bring your vermin horde!
The Long Patrol awaits you, led by a Badger Lord!

Can you hardly blame hares, or woodlanders for that matter, for despising and not trusting vermin? Vermin are the personification of evil in the Redwall series. They murder, plunder, steal, and on and on. Those woodlanders who are "unnecessarily violent" really are dealing justice, though in a more heated way then, perhaps, we are used to. If you would take the tally of these vermins' lives, you would find the evidence neccessary to take them to court, convict them, and execute them all. Is this really any different? Perhaps, to come across a vermin band which you see no evidence of them ever having harmed anyone nor having attempted to harm you, and to kill them, would be unecessarily violent. But to kill vermin which have attacked you, killed many others?

You may think it cold-hearted to kill a creature pathetically whining for mercy before you... But how many times have these vermin killed honest, innocent woodlanders begging for their mercy? How many times will they should you let them go? This is the point I think you miss. It is only just that they pay for their crimes. And a mis-execution of justice will cause the executor, in such a case, to be guilty of crimes the executee commits

[Feles]

today i shall tell the story of some squirrel (forgot the name, of course  ) and Greypatch. So once the vermin are defeated at redwall, Greypatch, seeing defeat, retreats into the wilderness, having learned his lesson and having left Redwall for good, The squirrel goes into the wilderness, tracks him down, and kills Greypatch. There was absolutely no vendetta against Greypatch and hunting him down to kill him went against all the woodlanders stand for

[Dannflower Reguba]

       Greypatch the pirate, he would've gone on to do many more horrible things. Killing him was completely just (which would make it very much the woodlanders duty), not to mention his assault resulted in the deaths of Clary, Thyme, and Treefleet, so there's revenge to be considered as well (so yes, there absolutely was a vendetta). Details sir, include them please.

       Oh, and his name was Oak Tom, so you've got little to stand on if you're trying to make him out as evil because Tom is most certainly not.

       "Learned his lesson." Oh please, let's be serious for a second, when do vermin ever learn their lesson?  Blaggut and Swinky (pretty sure that's the wrong name, but it's close) were the only good vermin in the series, and they always were. The only valid argument here would be Veil, and that's a very sketchy situation to go off of.

       

[Jetthebinturong]

For the last time Dan, Flinky. I feel like I correct you on that more than I correct anyone on anything.

[Izeroth]

 You could make an argument that Crumdun (the stoat from The Rogue Crew) did "learn his lesson."

[Dannflower Reguba]

       Heaven forbid that I can't remember one character's name in a series about several hundred. Is Crumdun the one that ended up in a cave somewhere and we never found out what happened with him? I wasn't counting him because he was just sort of... Neutral.

       

[Jetthebinturong]

Three times. Three. The same character, misspelled the same way three times with three a correction after each.

[Izeroth]

       Heaven forbid that I can't remember one character's name in a series about several hundred. Is Crumdun the one that ended up in a cave somewhere and we never found out what happened with him? I wasn't counting him because he was just sort of... Neutral.

       

Crumdun was the corsair who got captured by the long patrol. He never really does anything evil in the book, but we can assume that, being a corsair, he has done evil things in the past.

[Feles]

so youre telling me that just because his name is tom, that makes him good 

Lets remember that Greypatch was on the run from Gabool and attacked Redwall mostly out of desperation to fight somewhere to hold Gabool off.also, Greypatch was definitely not on the top of the "evil vermin" list, in fact, compared to most any captain,chief etc., he was just about as evil as any random vermin, which have been spared before, (by long Patrol hares i might add) so what exactly makes him on the "must kill" list, seeing as in any fight, causalities are sustained
also, i honestly thought him to turn out like the small vermin gang did in loamhenge, once his army had died
Lastly, i never said Oak Tom was evil, just bloodthirsty a bit

[Dannflower Reguba]

       Greypatch is still a pirate. He still did absolutely horrible things, of this, we can be pretty certain. Also, you're trying to use the "he wasn't as bad as the others," argument. That doesn't really stick seeing just how horrible the average vermin really is. Also, you didn't address the fact that there was indeed a revenge factor involved.

       I wasn't saying Oak Tom isn't evil because of his name. I was saying that because he's a woodlander that's very dedicated to Redwall and the protection of the innocent.